wow ok now that is very strange hahaha

and Jans has a point

Decent at making crappy music, sure.

Personal opinion isn't synonymous with fact. Exactly. The Smiths aren't factually good, I just like them.

But let's discuss your example of LMFAO. You think they're terrible, I actually think they're a decent pop group. Imagine they somehow remain popular for the next 15 years and even *gasp* influence people. Would you start thinking they should be immune to criticism or would you still think they were terrible? I ask this question because it was my exact experience with Jay-Z.

I don't see it being the case. The whole idea behind being influential is that you were groundbreaking in some respect, that you did something new that a lot of artists hoped to emulate. It's like saying The Hives were influential to a bunch of post-punk revival bands when all they did was emulate bands that came before them.

I think it kind of is an antithesis to the whole bottom line behind being influential.

janz using hypothetical scenario's to prove invalid point

lmfao, one direction are the product of a team of musicians, they're merely there to sell the image. I'm sure LMFAOs songwriters are going to be getting paid a decade later in some form.

Exactly, music like that is made to be trendy and hit makers purely for money

Yeah the whole thing about being influential is that you did something worth emulating. Not sure One Direction has done anything worth a salt :laughing:

But what I'm saying is that, when I first heard Jay-Z back in the 90s, he wasn't groundbreaking. He wasn't anything new. He was just another generic guy with a hit song. But he continued to be popular year after year and then at some point I started encountering people like yourself who consider him some sort of unassailable icon. What I'm asking you is, if you were in that boat, would you suddenly decide the crappy guy wasn't crappy?

janz are you seriously unable to see why someone else would like jay z?

I still think Bob Dylan is crappy, despite the praise heaped on him. So it's not a matter of converting personal opinion so much as recognizing what the artist did.

And I know this conversation started with you dissing Jay-Z, but as someone who's not a big fan I'm not gonna try and justify his greatness (someone else is surely more qualified and knowledgable to do that). This is coming more from your opinion on 2pac ;)

Totally missing the point there Sparky. The example has nothing to do with LMFAO. Pick any current artist that you find generic and uninteresting as an example and imagine some time in the future when some people consider them one of "the greats". Would you suddenly start considering them great?

"this has been happening for 5 pages" alert

Cos they need to feel safe and secure in their musical choices so go for the most popular rapper (and he sells himself well). I know exactly why people like him but disagree with it entirely.

Jay-Z is a fraud.

Huh? Obviously people who like him do so because they like the way he does what he does. Is there a point to this question?

I'd rather not try to force myself to imagine into the future. I'd rather try to look back 15 years, and think of artists who were (without any doubt) terrible in my mind and see where they are currently. Names like Lil Wayne, Chris Cornell, and dude those are seriously the only names i can come up with right now and i wouldnt say either is terrible so yeah im contradicting myself

What im saying is any artist who is crap right now isn't going to be relevant 15 years into the future. It' a lame hypothetical. Jay Z is relevant still because he isn't terrible

Nice circular argument. :laughing:

Talk to me in 15 years. I guarantee you'll have a completely different perspective on this.

Totally. Really not a fan of any of the four.

I do agree that some artists have managed to remain popular after a long period of time (*cough* Journey, Foreigner, ****ty AOR in general), but I don't see them getting much credit for artists they influence in the future. Are we focusing on influence or lasting popularity? I think they're two different things.

That's my barometer of quality. If i can't for any conceivable reason understand why someone would like this music than i usually am fairly certain it's crappy. To reitterate an earlier point, how much you like it, isn't indicative of how good it is on a general level.

Circular argument? I made the same point. You say talk to me in 15 years (again here we are going to the future) and im trying to reflect on my past 15 years of music listening. There is no artist that comes to my head that i hated 15 years ago that still remains very influential. Eddie Vedder had that into the wild sound track but i don't think hes that influential.

Oh okay then, no music in the world is crappy.

No matter how much i rant about certain music being crappy i belive what you said is true to some degree weather i like it or not. Cus music thats crappy to someone could be great to someone else.

Crappy music sure. Crappy music that has a career like jay? not as much

We're back to opinion again though. There is definitely crappy music, if there wasn't there'd be no point to having this forum, every discussion would just be "I like this, I like that." It's effectively saying the only difference between a good musician and a bad musician is whether someone thinks they're good or bad, which is obviously daft.

I admit I like some crap music. I dislike some good music too, purely because it doesn't entertain me.

:beer:

Jansz, does your way of viewing this translate into other mediums of art?

Would you argue that Ernest Hemingway was a terrible writer if you didn't like him?

I understand what your saying 100%. But it seems like when it comes to music their is always conflict with the facts and the opinion of weather music is good or not. like whats the definition of crap music? i feel that we all have our own opinions of it, but then again that's another opinion. It is kind of a hard thing.

But I do like some of what most would say is crap music. I like some ignorant hard music like waka flocka or cheif keef and even some of Lil B's crap when he chooses not to actually try and spit which is 95% of the time lol. But i know what your saying and i can agree to that counter arguement

Yes, you began with the conclusion you were trying to arrive at. It was a circular argument.

How old are you out of curiosity? I was under the impression you were in your early 20s.

Sure. Though comparing Jay-Z to Hemingway is pretty hilarious.

Your as guilty. You've told me to look into the future like every time
irrelevant really. im older than you, actually.

Didn't you compare Jay-Z to One Direction? :laughing:

Anyways, I can't believe you'd think that. Hemingway's impact is huge and undeniable, regardless of personal taste.

So, basically, what you're saying is you don't know what circular reasoning is. Got it.

Riiiiight.

I got the definition open on the other tab. your doing it right now

dude your not countering anyone's argument this is straight semantics

Nope. I compared "a current artist you don't like" to Jay-Z. You chose One Direction. :)

Sure, his impact is undeniable and I personally like him. That doesn't mean I think everyone else should be required to like him.

Zzzzz...

I didn't know you were making a comparison, you asked me for a current artist I didn't like.

If that's what you think I've been suggesting this whole time, you have been woefully misinterpreting me. What I'm suggesting is I think talent and significance can be judged independently from personal taste.

you and everyone else. watch out for janz "circular argument"

I'm going to do everyone itt a favor and post this lol:

tasteless

Right. To make a point about about the bizarre nature of what ends up being retroactively dubbed "great", not to specifically compare the merits of One Direction and Jay-Z.

I agree with that to a certain extent. But I don't see why that would mean that I'm not allowed to think Jay-Z is terrible.

He isn't making a circular argument so he has nothing to worry about. :)

Z's are tasteless?

Context, bud. Now that's a tasteful word. PS they're, like, the last letter in the alphabet, and who ever cared about 26 besides classic anime fans?

But on your previous post, I think that's the point. You can think Jay is terrible, i'm sure many do, but would you deny that he had any influence on (especially) this generation of rap?