Jay-Z vs. Nas

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 12:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

Right. To make a point about about the bizarre nature of what ends up being retroactively dubbed "great", not to specifically compare the merits of One Direction and Jay-Z.

But I wasn't comparing the merits of Jay-Z to Hemingway. I was taking the crux of your argument and applying it the most extreme case I could think of to see if your argument remained consistent. Props to you for staying consistent, even though I think your nuts lol

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I agree with that to a certain extent. But I don't see why that would make it so I'm not allowed to think Jay-Z is terrible.

Well, if you agree then I suppose I don't have much else to say, except that seems to contradict your saying that Hemingway could be considered a terrible writer to someone who doesn't enjoy his work.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of Jay-Z's. If you want to debate his importance that's certainly something that can be discussed. I've only ever been saying that if you can recognize an artist's significance, your calling him/her terrible should be only a bearing on your opinion of them, and that respect can still be held for an artist you dislike (if it's deserved. You don't think it is for Jay-Z as I understand it, and that's perfectly valid).

**Janszoon** · 12-05-2012, 12:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Surell

Context, bud. Now that's a tasteful word. PS they're, like, the last letter in the alphabet, and who ever cared about 26 besides classic anime fans?

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Originally Posted by Surell

But on your previous post, I think that's the point. You can think Jay is terrible, i'm sure many do, but would you deny that he had any influence on (especially) this generation of rap?

Phew, finally someone says I'm allowed to think Jay-Z is terrible. Thank you.

As far as influence goes: Yeah, he's been around for a long time and is very popular, I'm sure he's influenced a lot of people. I don't think I've ever claimed otherwise.

Surell · 12-05-2012, 12:22 AM

I think it may have been confused though. When people hear that you think an artist is terrible and will not falter on the position, they think you're also attacking his significance, which is the base debate here. Not many of the dudes in this argument like HOVA that much (myself excluded) but they were defending his character in terms of his place in the rap canon, which, they seemed to claim, can't be knocked, as it's objectively recognized (much like, sadly, Eminem's canonization). That's my interpretation of the situation anyway

sorry about that first part btw, it's my consciousness of the letter Z, an advertisement they once aired on a banned episode of Sesame St.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surell

I think it may have been confused though. When people hear that you think an artist is terrible and will not falter on the position, they think you're also attacking his significance, which is the base debate here. Not many of the dudes in this argument like HOVA that much (myself excluded) but they were defending his character in terms of his place in the rap canon, which, they seemed to claim, can't be knocked, as it's objectively recognized (much like, sadly, Eminem's canonization). That's my interpretation of the situation anyway

sorry about that first part btw, it's my consciousness of the letter Z, an advertisement they once aired on a banned episode of Sesame St.

Basically. Calling 2pac a terrible rapper or Hemingway a terrible writer seems more a bearing on their mastery of the medium then your opinion of them. I don't enjoy reading Shakespeare at all, but it would be absurd of me to call him a terrible writer.

**Janszoon** · 12-05-2012, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

But I wasn't comparing the merits of Jay-Z to Hemingway. I was taking the crux of your argument and applying it the most extreme case I could think of to see if your argument remained consistent.

Ah, you're right. I see what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Props to you for staying consistent, even though I think your nuts lol

You think my nuts what?!

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Well, if you agree then I suppose I don't have much else to say, except that seems to contradict your saying that Hemingway could be considered a terrible writer to someone who doesn't enjoy his work.

Not sure I follow. If someone thinks Hemingway is terrible, it seem obvious to me that they would not enjoy his work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Like I said, I'm not a fan of Jay-Z's. If you want to debate his importance that's certainly something that can be discussed. I've only ever been saying that if you can recognize an artist's significance, your calling him/her terrible should be only a bearing on your opinion of them, and that respect can still be held for an artist you dislike (if it's deserved. You don't think it is for Jay-Z as I understand it, and that's perfectly valid).

All I've really been saying here is I personally think Jay-Z is terrible and I disagree with the people who seem to think I'm not allowed to have that opinion for some reason. As I said at the very beginning of the conversation, "Of course it's my opinion. This is a conversation about personal taste."

~~Cuthbert~~ · 12-05-2012, 12:29 AM

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Originally Posted by FrigginParadox

I understand what your saying 100%. But it seems like when it comes to music their is always conflict with the facts and the opinion of weather music is good or not. like whats the definition of crap music? i feel that we all have our own opinions of it, but then again that's another opinion. It is kind of a hard thing.

But I do like some of what most would say is crap music. I like some ignorant hard music like waka flocka or cheif keef and even some of Lil B's crap when he chooses not to actually try and spit which is 95% of the time lol. But i know what your saying and i can agree to that counter arguement

Respect bro.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 12:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

You think my nuts what?!

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Not sure I follow. If someone thinks Hemingway is terrible, it seem obvious to me that they would not enjoy his work.

All I've really been saying here is I personally think Jay-Z is terrible and I disagree with the people who seem to think I'm not allowed to have that opinion for some reason. As I said at the very beginning of the conversation, "Of course it's my opinion. This is a conversation about personal taste."

See my post below yours. We might be able to chalk this 2 hour argument up to a misinterpretation.

**Janszoon** · 12-05-2012, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surell

I think it may have been confused though. When people hear that you think an artist is terrible and will not falter on the position, they think you're also attacking his significance, which is the base debate here. Not many of the dudes in this argument like HOVA that much (myself excluded) but they were defending his character in terms of his place in the rap canon, which, they seemed to claim, can't be knocked, as it's objectively recognized (much like, sadly, Eminem's canonization). That's my interpretation of the situation anyway

sorry about that first part btw, it's my consciousness of the letter Z, an advertisement they once aired on a banned episode of Sesame St.

The funny part is I explicitly stated that I was simply talking about my personal opinion of his music right at the very beginning of the conversation.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 12-05-2012, 12:37 AM

Good thread this.

Sparky · 12-05-2012, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surell

I think it may have been confused though. When people hear that you think an artist is terrible and will not falter on the position, they think you're also attacking his significance, which is the base debate here. Not many of the dudes in this argument like HOVA that much (myself excluded) but they were defending his character in terms of his place in the rap canon, which, they seemed to claim, can't be knocked, as it's objectively recognized (much like, sadly, Eminem's canonization). That's my interpretation of the situation anyway

sorry about that first part btw, it's my consciousness of the letter Z, an advertisement they once aired on a banned episode of Sesame St.

Beating a dead horse do not care

What people were alluding to prior was that you could respect any other artist enough to not warrant calling them terrible, whether they be led zeppelin or whatever, their amount of influence wouldn't have been possible if they were indeed "terrible".

Surrel when Lil Wayne is called terrible you can make objective reasons as to why he's not.

Believe it or not "terrible" artists (maybe i have a wildly different definition of the word then others) don't have expansive careers.

Terrible artists-chingy, panic at the disco, styx, whatever they arent around for long

12-05-2012, 12:37 AM	#209 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	Good thread this.