DwnWthVwls

Can you explain his influence? What exactly has he influenced in your opinion?

No denying he is 100000000x popular than Dead Prez will ever be, but I fail to see what exactly he has done to improve or change the hiphop scene. He's not doing anything original or influential, he just built himself an empire.

So again i'll ask and hopefully not be ignored for a second time.. What exactly has Kanye influenced? If you think I am an idiot than please educate me.

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FaSho

These two sentences kind of contradict each other. With the exception of (arguably) 808s and Graduation his albums have continued to get more and more experimental and abrasive. He is influential because he continues to push the envelope, especially as a producer. Before college dropout, no popular musician was using samples the way he did, and you can essentially use that same sentence framework (before ___ no popular musician was ___) in regards to any of his albums.

Also just throwing this out there: let's get free is a GREAT album

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DwnWthVwls

Good points FaSho, I was thinking about him more in terms of an MC than a producer. I can't argue with you so much in that regard but I would like you to go into further detail about sample usage.

I mean how is his use of samples any better or different than someone like the RZA or Stoupe?

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14232949

Okay, let's look at this.

Kanye West and the way he promotes both himself and his music with unparalleled levels of outlandish and egomaniac behaviour have prompted many mainstream artists to use similar methods for marketing new music.
Look at the PR behind acts like GaGa, Cyrus, Bieber, etc.
The idea of putting yourself on a pedestal with such aggressive and unorthodox self promotion that can be mistaken for insanity, has propelled many artists into the eyes of the media.
Who was the first modern artist to use such methods to garner publicity and hype behind every project he did. Kanye West.

Even looking back, before he was a solo artist. He was told he couldn't make it as a rapper, and was valued as a producer. Many record labels turned him down when he first had aspirations of a solo career.
It was the way he built his own empire from the ground up, with 'Through the Wire'
He didn't have label support and set his own hype. If you look at the hip-hop scene before West made his breakthrough it was dominating by artists with gimmicks and full supports of marketing machines; 50 Cent, Snoop Dogg, Nelly, Ja Rule, Eminem, etc.
Kanye was the first artist at that time to reach the same level of popularity, more or less, on his own.

Look at his first couple albums. They pushed emphasis away from the club scene and the glorification of material wealth, which is where hip-hop was after the gangster rap of the early 90's, the 'beefs' of the mid 90's and the dawning of new artists in the late 90's/00's. He made albums that were relatable to the common man, with tails of aspirations and failures and promises that he wasn't quite at the top, but would be there soon.
Not saying they were overly conscious, but they pushed that notion into the mainstream. Artists like Kendrick Lamar, Big KRIT and Jay Electronica can all thank Kanye from moving the scene more in a direction of honesty and integrity, where they could later come in and shine when Kanye had again changed the direction of hip-hop with more reflection onto himself and his own glory (which other artists are already starting to follow - look at Kendrick calling himself King of NY or Gambino claiming he's the best rapper alive)

Kanye brought a lot of underground names into the mainstream with him. Guys like Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Common, etc may be familiar names to you or I, but they were never found in the Billboard Hot 100 or whatever you Americans use for counting down popular albums. Kanye gave them a new audience and helped bridge a gap between underground (I use the term lightly, I guess) and mainstream. He helped a lot of artists cross over.

He also helped put a lot of artists on the map, it's been discussed on this thread that he helped put Nicki Minaj, Rick Ross, Chief Keef, you could argue the likes of Kid Cudi and even Lupe Fiasco on the map and give them a wider audience. He helped influence the mainstream direction of all their respective careers.

He also influenced as Fasho mentioned the heavy soul/rnb sampling that is popular in hip-hop today. Look at this song,



Would it exist without kanye west's influence and his incorporation of old soul samples?

Remember, West is one if not the best producers currently. He produced tracks on The Blue Print, The Lost Tapes, Trap Musick, The Black Album & The Documentary.
Not to mention his own albums, which has all had massive impacts on hip-hop and shaped the nature of the game. Hugely influential.


Oh yeah, and Dead Prez's most famous song 'Still Bigger than Hip-Hop' the one that got them their break?
Know how produced that?
Kanye West.

Now, you tell me what Dead Prez have done for hip-hop.

DwnWthVwls

Awesome Manky. Just want to preface my response by saying thanks for actually putting in the time to type that up, it's nice to have some serious hiphop discussion.

Well, of course it has but it's not like he invented it or was the first to use it. I think you are giving him too much credit for some of the avantgarde PR and performances by popular mainstream artists. I don't see a difference between them and people like Bjork or Ozzy Osbourne. That kind of shock and awe has always been used as a marketing tool by some artists. Also, egotism has been a dominating trait of hiphop for a very long time which stems from the root of the culture, it's not a new phenomenon.

With good reason, as I said to FaSho, this is the way I was looking at Kanye in my previous posts arguing with you. He is a terrible MC, but as I admitted his production is on point. However, I don't think production gets nearly as much as credit for influencing hiphop as MCs do.

Kanye is a gimmick. That whole pedestal/egomaniac thing is a marketing ploy works incredibly well. Yes, he didnt have the full support of marketing machines but that gimmick got him the recognition to be propelled into stardom with the help of JayZ. Similarly, Eminem was recognized by Dr Dre and 50 was propelled by Eminem. If you are going to discredit Em and 50 then you have to discredit Kanye.

Sure, Kanye helped with this but I also attribute that to the natural progression of music and American culture as a whole. There has always been huge shifts in hiphop that you can't give credit to one person for. Look at the difference between 70s->80s, and 80s->90s.

I concede to you on this point. Your absolutely right. I really hate Kanye but I have to give him credit for helping other artists move up the ladder even if I don't like said artists. As far as Black Star and Common, they never got any mainstream recognition around. Maybe Mos Def, but definitely not Talib and Common, they are way too much like lyrcists and not enough like club bangers to ever get on the mainstream level. Young kids nowadays and even from my generation don't want to hear about lyrics in hiphop, they care about beats. Idk, how many people I showed songs like "Get By" and "I Used To Lover Her" to and their like "Yeh, that's alright".

Then you play a song by Lil Wayne or Kanye and they get all excited over bull**** lines like, "I dont eat sushi, I'm the ****, no I'm pollution, no substitution", and they praise these men as good MCs. If that's what they like I'm not going to sit there telling them they are wrong. I just don't get it, and I think they are stupid. Maybe, I am corrupted or biased after being a hiphop head for the past 22 years and appreciating the classics.

Those kinds of samples have ALWAYS been used in hiphop. Look at the "HipHop and Samples" thread I started a few days ago. Kanye didn't invent these ideas or even revolutionize them, they just get more recognition nowadays because of how popular he is.

I don't have some big article arguing on Dead Prez behalf what I said before is pretty much the only thing I can give them credit for. Public Enemy and Dead Prez laid the groundwork for a social/political sub-genre of hiphop. Yes, Dead Prez is kind of new(late 90's/early 2k) but if you read a lot of articles they are given credit quite often for being an influence. Look how much recognition your man Kanye gives them.

Ultimately, I feel the major split in our views comes from me not giving Kanye enough credit for influencing things because 1) the things he made popular are not new they simply gained popularity, and 2) I don't appreciate his music, on an artistic level, or any mainstream artist for that matter (generally speaking).

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14232949

Yeah, I appreciate he wasn't the first artist do to controversial things. Heck, The Beatles said they were bigger than Jesus, right? Whilst Kanye never bit bats head off or the like, he did his shock/egomaniacal ploys in a different way.
How many people pulled off stunts similar to the interruption of Taylor Swift? His were more fitting with the characteristics of an ******* as opposed to a weirdo like Ozzy or quirky like Bjork.
Whilst many artists pulled acts that were slammed by the media as weird and provocative, Kanye pulled this into the modern day.
You could argue punk music was all about pushing the grounds of controversy, that black metal pushed the boundaries of moral decency, but Kanye again opened it up in a way that mainstream artists could use. You could argue one of the things Kanye is best at, is drawing influences from several places and different mediums and combining them into a package.

To use social media as a tool for courting controversy, to use your own inflated sense of self worth as a way of promoting how good your music is.

Whether Kanye West is a character, or not. He's got the people believing he actually believes the things he says, the things he does. Which adds weight to the stunts he pulls, they seem authentic. Just like Miley Cyrus, you believe she is the corrupted spouse of a man with a bad heart and the Disney kid gone wrong with too much partying and fame. It could be true, it could be a fabrication. Kanye helped blur the lines between music persona and real life, and though he may not have been the first person to do it (in this day and age how many things that anyone does are truly original?) he helped package and modernize it.


Hm, the way I see it, if they remember you, you're doing something right, right?
Okay, Kanye is not the best wordsmith in the world, nor does he have the best flow, nor is he the fatest rapper, nor the most articulate.
What he does have is a defined character and presence. He has an unmistakable voice and presence. When you're listening to a Kanye West track, you know it's Kanye West.
He manages to stamp his mark on tracks much better than many more 'skilled' MC's.
I couldn't tell you the difference between a Black Thought and a Common song.
Kanye may not be in the top tier of rappers in terms of technical ability, but for a genre with a notoriously short shelf life, he's managed to reinvent himself and always keep himself relevant and at the top of the pile.
He makes his music interesting by adding in the quirks and quips of his character. His lyrics can be outright stupid at times, but they're quotable, recognizable and in some places even iconic.

'Eating Asian pussy all I need is sweet and sour sauce'

may be an absolutely ludicrous line, but if I asked 100 people with basic knowledge of hip-hop to tell me the artist who wrote that line, I bet the vast majority could correctly identify it.

Kanye must be doing something correctly that more 'skilled' MC's aren't doing, as he's the one who's had the success and accolades.


See, I'd have to say Jay is different to Dre and Em. How many people has Jay backed 100% of the way, from the start.
I like Jay, but it's undeniable he latches onto artists who are already hot. Kanye, Beyonce, Jay Electronica, Justin Timberlake, etc.
Dre had Eminem from the start, and was one of the few respected names in hip-hop who would push a white artist.
Eminem and Dre were behind 50 from the start.
Kanye had to get over on his own first before Jay would fully want to be tied with him.
Credit to Jay, he's a business man. He knows when to latch onto artists to maximize his own exposure, but to say he was behind Kanye as an MC from day 1 just isn't true.
Yes, West is a gimmick, but when he came out in '04 he wasn't the Kanye West of today. He was more humble, he was the guy who pondered how material wealth changed a person, he was the guy talking about his aspirations and dreams and the factors that stood in the way of him obtaining them.
I'd like to compare Kanye West to a pro wrestling character. His character had to change over time to stay fresh and relevant. He's had stints as a face (good guy) and heel (bad guy)
50 Cent has been the exact same character since Day 1, that's why his career has died out.
Eminem, credit to him, mixed it up and broke new ground several times.
I don't like Em, but I can appreciate his contributions to hip-hop. However, one could argue he's now ran his course. Kanye is still going strong.



Yeah, I get what you're saying. Hip-hop changes, but it needs big names to actively go out and make change.
Change doesn't just happen because of natural progression, at least not in music.
Unless someone actually actively moves emphasis away from the club scene, it's not going to be done.
Kanye was one of the guys that actively did this.

Okay, you say this. But what makes an MC good? Surely it's subjective, right? There's no right or wrong way to do hip-hop. You've been into hip-hop a long time, you'll know that hip-hop is a way of expressive freedom.
If Kanye and Wayne are doing tracks that people are enjoying, that people are quoting and rapping to themselves, how can that be a bad thing?
Yes, Kanye isn't the most gifted lyricist in the world, but it seems like an odd thing to pick him up on. Look at Run DMC, they were bad lyricists too.
Look at 2Pac, his production was mediocre at best. Nobody picks these guys up on it.
Kanye isn't the worlds greatest rapper, but if you take him as an overall package, then surely what he's given to hip-hop as a rapper, producer, recording artist, personality and ambassador to the genre, surely he ranks up there with those guys.


Ya, you're right. But would that exact song exist without Kanye? Nope. As I said earlier, how many people in 2014 can claim to be truly unique? Kanye used his influence and big name to push these samples onto a whole new audience. He's not the first one to do it, nor has he done it in the most creative way.
But who has done it more prominently?

Naa, don't worry about it. I'd say I like Dead Prez, I don't listen to them much because their music comes off as a bit preachy and it doesn't have much replay value to me as an individual. I'm white. Most of the issues they passionately speak of, don't affect me.
I don't need a track telling me to improve my diet, that comes as just as egotistical as anything Kanye has made.

I don't think you have to give him props as an artist to enjoy his music. And ultimately we're all here because we enjoy music, and discussing it. I don't really care about being socially conscious in music. I listen to music to help escape the reality of the world sometimes. I don't need Dead Prez reminding me of the ills of media corruption. (heck, I guess Kanye has touched upon issues like that himself, but he knows how to package it in a way that a wide audience can enjoy it) I guess my gripe with Dead Prez is more that I don't find their music overly enjoyable. I do like them in small doses, I actually sent Goofle one of their albums in an Album Club when we were both new to Music Banter. I just feel guys like Kanye West and Drake get far too much flak for not being 'artists' or 'lyricists' or 'skilled MC's' when nobody would dare criticize Big L for not being able have the versatility to release a successful club track, y'know?

Sorry if anything I've written sounded passive aggressive. Not intention. Hard to convey emotion over the internet. I enjoy discussing the merits of different artists, that's all.

djchameleon

Most hip hop heads like Dwn only want one kind of sound from their hip hop and if it doesn't have that 90's feel to it then they pass it up and shun it regardless of who it is.

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DwnWthVwls

Nah man not at all. Just a difference of opinion. If I felt that way I would have removed myself from the conversation, I don't participate in forum warrior debates.

If you said that to me about 8 years ago I would have totally agreed but I am different now. I don't look for sound in hiphop at all, it's about lyrics for me (when considering talent), minus the classics which were just such a huge part of my life that they will always be appreciated. Also, I bump mainstream rap when driving because I only have a radio and as I stated earlier I prefer it in bar/club environments. I just don't hold it in high regard when I consider what defines a talented MC.

However, aside from a few songs I really don't like Kanye songs the moment he opens his mouth. It's a shame really because I like his beats but his arrogance and ****ty MC presence ruins it for me.

Also, I won't shun a song based on who it's made by. If I like the song I like the song, I got over being a music snob and telling people their musical opinions are wrong a while ago. My opinions may differ and sometimes I will express that difference but at the end of the day I recognize that music is a completely personal thing and there are no ways that I know of to define what makes a song good or bad without imposing strict parameters on the debate.

to me Kanye sucks.
to you Kanye is awesome.

You aren't wrong, I just don't share your opinion. I just told you I enjoyed that second CyHi track your linked.

The discussion Manky and I just had didn't focus on Kanye as an artist, it was about his influence on hiphop.

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14232949

So you only like hip-hop artists who you perceive to be lyrically adequate except for those in the 80's and early 90's who get a bye on nostalgia?

DwnWthVwls

No, what you described are the artists that I hold in high regard and/or consider talented.

However, I have no problems bumping a ****ty song like Gas Pedal from time to time simply because I enjoy the beat or find it catchy. I just don't consider it quality music. Similar to how "Call Me Maybe" or "Moves Like Jaggar" are guilty pleasure, but in no way would I ever consider those amazing songs. They are catchy and have a time and place.

I think there needs to be a distinction between quality and appeal.

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