Burning Down

Oh I didn't say "hold back"! You're allowed to give your opinion, definitely. But it's better to respond to people who don't agree with you or whatnot in a mature way. Basically, don't stoop to the low level of throwing personal insults around - like saying "oh you're such a ****ing idiot because you don't like such-and-such band" or whatever.

catsandmusic

i get that.

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Surell

Now I follow that the theme of fame is prevalent, and there is a point to be made for that. However, this would allow me to call albums like Neil Young's Zuma (or really almost all of his albums if you ask me) concept albums because the songs thread together unifying themes (for the aforementioned album, it would be love in various forms). Sometimes I think this can be the case, like Animal Collective's recurring food references on Strawberry Jam, or maybe their "alien band" sound on Centipede Hz.

Many albums, though, attempt to thread together unified sounds or themes so it doesn't feel like a pile of songs they just wanted to get out there; this is probably thanks to Sgt. Peppers, one of the loosest examples of a concept album I'm aware of - the only things tying it together are the unity of sound, certain story "signifiers" at the beginning and the end, and, thrown in for its own credibility, sound cues that enhance the conceptual experience. I wouldn't argue it to be a concept album because the mid-section really doesn't carry the story, and sometimes the most cohesive tracks don't even tie the theme together. Really, it's the Beatles telling you stories as a band that's not supposed to be the Beatles - while it's very interesting and postmodern, it doesn't have much in the way of a narrative arc.

I find very similar issues with the idea of this album as a concept album (which is not necessarily a detraction, though many use it as a pro in discussions of it). It has the opening track meant to set up the storyline, much like the Sgt. Peppers intro track.
Then "Gorgeous" explores his status as a rich/famous black man, and the general status of the black man, in America (this is most definitely among the best tracks on the album).
Then we get "Power," where we find out just how rich and arrogant Kanye can be (well maybe not but it's a good estimate); this is a pretty vague topic though, much like how "Lucy..." on SP's related to the theme of the album in that we found out just how high-flying the Beatles can really get (also, Psychedelic music).
Then, "All of the Lights." Now, I'm pretty sure this song wasn't talking about the shows he was doing and publicity he was gaining in his rise to fame - he discusses some dispute he had with a baby mama, and how he can't see his daughter. This is where we get all "Getting Better," (almost literally, since both speakers have a nasty past), where the narrative arc is very loose, only being tied in by some reference to the "theme" (there are a couple of references of fame (the lights and such), and some sound cues/unity to maintain the conceptual conceit.
"Monster" really has no bearing on the any theme of the album; it's an unabashed brag-fest, and though Bon Iver's intro and conclusion may imply some relation to fame, no verse really touches on the horrible effect it has on the company present.
"So Appalled," even with a RZA hook, has to be among my least favorite songs on the album. That aside, this track does somewhat get back to the point of fame in the way you claimed it was being portrayed here: Kanye has some odd imagery relating to fame (though not always as deprecating or surreal as one would expect on a track titled as it is); Jay Z's power anxieties and excesses (probably the most potent example); and Pusha's coke and fame combo that slips by the end much like the past two artists. While this does thread in the idea of fame in a more concrete way, it still does fulfill some storyline; it merely discusses the idea.
With "Devil in a New Dress," there is the issue of being with a woman who wants your wealth, Ross entirely counters these notions in his verse, and Kanye really doesn't stick to them that well. It transitions very well into
"Runaway," which could imply a relation, though really this could stand for about any girl Kanye's been with and could have been fitted into any album; the theme of fame isn't even implied here. Pusha's verse further establishes the basis of the track as cheating, faithlessness, and regret/arrogance. (Btw, that song is probably the best on the album.)
"Hell of a Life," another lady track, certainly fulfills the mini concept about relationships in the album, but overall that's not what the album's about. Plus, this song is just corny.
So "Blame Game" should close this little concept out, but "Lost in the World" contains reference to a woman as well. Then we get this bookender from Gil-Scott Heron (a very well selected one at that) to seemingly wrap up the album as about the black man's struggle, the American's struggle, Kanye's struggle, etc., though it doesn't much pertain to some grand idea the album maintains throughout.

And I bolded that bit in your quote because I don't think this can really be about his regret with that relationship when he doesn't even mention the girl until halfway through the album, with no real reference to her situation until then.

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Surell

Usually there needs to be some narrative arc though, not just the illusion of one created by sound unity/cues, vague themes, and cohesion.[/quote]
It only matters when it is an integral part of its value as one of the greatest albums in its field, which I would say is so in this case.
Where's the fun in that?
Yes, to only use that much of an argument and not supply reasons why it is about y not x is stupid.
This has already been covered above.

Now I want you to keep in mind that when I entered the conversation I was finding this tactic of discussion dominant:

and when i retorted:

I got:

So when you try to catch me on some:

And hit me with some:

I'm gonna call you on it because it seems like you walked in a little late and it shows.

Besides, as said before, yes, there is right and wrong. If one can provide reasons as to why the artistic merit of a is greater than that of b, and another cannot provide such reason, then one can be right, and another can be wrong.

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catsandmusic

and then i supplied my opinion

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Surell

I never said you didn't, i said you introduced yourself to the debate with a hint of arrogance.

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SGR

We need to get Kanye in here to clarify this

catsandmusic

lol

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SGR

I bet Pitchfork would clarify this for us

catsandmusic

lmao i hope you're joking though

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>greentexting on this site