Originally Posted by music_phantom13

No. A Tribe Called Quest should definitely be in the list, without doubt. They may not have played a part in influencing anything that has ever been hugely mainstream, but they certainly don't sound dated the way Rakim does to me now. Rakim did a lot for influencing mainstream rap that came after him, and is a clear influence in an unbelievable amount of rappers. But ATCQ developed a completely unique jazz rap sound, and along with De La Soul (who I don't consider to be as unique or influential) completely paved the way for alternative hip-hop. And while rap was starting to turn to darker themes and violence, ATCQ made jazzy songs with incredible beats, fantastic samples, and often nonsensical, fun, intelligent lyrics. I'd put them in top 5 for sure, over the Jungle Brothers, who had a much more focused influence and didn't truly open up the new genre like ATCQ.

Just my take. And I don't listen to that much rap, so I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Jester

Rakim didn't only influence mainstream rap, man. Like I said, he basically invented modern lyrical technique.
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Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

i'll reiterate

"Big daddy kane was stringing together multiple syllable rhymes, alliteration, metaphors, assonance rhyming ect just as early if not earlier than rakim was. "

Rakim isn't the sole creater of "modern lyrical technique". If i had to choose i'd say big daddy kane gets that title. (although it isn't based solely on either of them, sure rakim influenced it and was one of the big players in lyricism, influencing rappers to become more lyrical but he definitley wasn't the biggest and he definitley didn't do it by himself)

Originally Posted by Jester

I get that, man. I know that Big Daddy Kane was also experimenting with new techniques, and there were more than just Kane and Rakim. Chuck D was doing it, and no one seems to remember Kool Keith, but he was huge innovator, too. What about a few years later? Pharoahe Monch kicked lyrical technique and flow in the face harder than anyone.

The reason that Kane doesn't come in ahead of Rakim is because Rakim did it first (just a bit, but still), and he was more diverse of an MC. Now, you can say that Rakim didn't exist long enough before Kane to be an influence on him, but by the time Kane had come along, the techniques and ideas were already out there.

Big Daddy Kane is another artist I'd put in a high spot on a bigger list of influential hip hop artists, but I can't see him in a top 10 or higher than Rakim. There's just really no reason that Big Daddy Kane is better than Rakim.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

I don't think Rakim released anything spectacular or influencial before Kane did. I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure rakims first majorly lyrical and influential song was in 1987 shortly AFTER kanes underground hit Raw. That's not even considering kanes time spent with the Juice Crew before that. I doubt either rapper influenced the other because they were both evolving their styles at the same time.

Also i'm being extremely biased because although i respect rakim had a lot of lyrical ability and was a talented rapper i just found him incredibly boring. I enjoyed kanes music much more and i still think he's a better lyricist lol.

Anyway, like i said earlier when i made list number 1 i wasn't cosndiering lyrical ability i was considering the artists impact on rap and the hiphop culture. Even if i was to make a list of the top 10 lyricists of all time i don't think rakim would make it in. Despite the fact that he (along with 5 or 6 other rappers at the time) pushed forward the complex lyricism and variety of techniques that has helped progress rap to the next level.

btw did you psot a list? lol

Originally Posted by Jester

I'm trying to make this the most objective list possible. This is probably going to change over time, but here's what I've got so far.

1. Aesop Rock
~ He's demonstrated his diversity over the years, and his lyrical content is virtually untouchable. If you go from No Regrets, where he shows off storytelling skill, then to Tugboat Complex Part 3, where the content is too much to digest in one lesson, it's impossible to miss his technical range of talent. His rhyme scheme is incredibly creative and complex, he's like a walking dictionary, and he's been one of the most consistent hip hop artists there's been. He displays a lot of intelligent wordplay and has an interesting voice and flow to match.

2. Chuck D
~ As the head of Public Enemy, Chuck D was one of the earliest to experiment with rhyming schemes, and Public Enemy is important in the fact that they pioneered a new take on hardcore rap that was revolutionary - musically and lyrically. Chuck D's lyrics turned rap into a socially conscious, political, and pro-black forefront. Not to mention, he has the most powerful voice in hip hop.

3. Rakim
~ I don't really like listening to him, I just get bored. However, if you listen to Paid in Full, you'll see that Rakim is responsible for basically inventing modern lyrical technique.

4. KRS-One
~ He took the state of hip hop by the throat and changed it all - he's essentially the godfather of hardcore rap. (Criminal Minded is the foundation of it.) Of course, like many musical innovations, the ideas and pieces existed, but KRS-One encompassed these ideas to truly create it. Not to mention, the grittiness of his older work stands against the test of time. He was also one of the earliest socially conscious rappers.

5. El-P
~ Incredibly adventurous and creative, El-Producto has made room for a lot of innovation in hip hop. His work with Company Flow, Cannibal Ox, and his solo work are all quality. He's the perfect balance between old school and new school, and as the frontman of Company Flow and Def Jux, El-P has basically called the shots and laid the groundwork for all modern day, backpacker rap. Company Flow was dense and abstract, while still being spacious. There was no similar hip hop at the time. It also seems that El-P's production only gets better and better - I'll Sleep When You're Dead sounds like nothing else, and is his best production yet. He's one of those few people who's great as a producer and a rapper.

6. Pharoahe Monch
~ Another innovator of modern lyrical technique, Pharoahe Monch is known for his complex delivery and intricate internal multi-syllabic rhyming. Organized Konfusion's debut album also showcases his perfect, perfect flow. The album was also quite ahead of its time; the flows and topics were progressive.

7. The Beastie Boys
~ The original white boy rap group, and the first white rappers that were of any importance, the Beastie Boys were able to widen what hip hop would be in the future. They fused a lot of their rapping with rock influences, made a lot of catchy tunes, and they were unbelievably smart - see Sounds of Science.

8. Aceyalone
~ People who relate Aceyalone to Aesop Rock are usually the ones who get him right. He lives in an irregular and interesting world, demonstrated by his lyrics. His voice works perfectly with his delivery - exciting and jumpy. His work with Freestyle Fellowship and on All Balls Don't Bounce are enough to put him near the top. He's also a leader in Project Blowed (hip hop collective).

9. Wu-Tang Clan / Gravediggaz
~ I really can't break this down to specific members, so this will have to do. Every Wu-Tang member has absolutely fantastic consistency, and they all have really interesting voices! Over Rza's eerie piano pieces and hypnotic, crunchy beats, every Wu member has a lot of character in their voices, and the lyrics are balanced between hilarious and hardcore rap-esque seriousness. Their sound is very, very recognizable. Gza is intricate, cool and literate, Ghostface Killah has a great voice for rapping, Ol' Dirty Bastard was fun with his unstable, menacing attitude and also played a comic relief with a recognizable part-sung part-rapped delivery. All the artists also went on to create lots of great solo albums.

10. Prefuse 73
~ This one might be a bit unexpected, but I think Prefuse deserves to be recognized as one of the greatest hip hop artists there has been. His glitch hop sound is incredibly original, and he's great at fucking with emotions, some reason. A lot of glitch hop stuff seems novelty - but Prefuse 73 isn't. When you first hear it, it's like, "Oh, that's neat stuff." But it takes a while to really appreciate him and take him for more than something that sounds cool.


Yes?

Originally Posted by Flower Child

Does anyone remember Ja-Rule? I remember my brother buying his album was back when we were little kiddies and it was called Venni Vetti Vecci, and it had a really good track on it called Race Against Time. I always thought it was a pretty good album myself, but am I the only one who thinks this?

Originally Posted by dollarsandcents

I remember him, he has some really catchy tracks when I was growing up and was really popular over here. I think that album was one of his best, and the song you mention was used in one of the Fast and Furious films I believe! I think he tried his hand at acting, no idea what he's doing now, but I guess in the years he was rapping he was popular, especially for his summery tracks with Ashanti in every one! Ahh, childhood days. Seems like more a relic of the past now though.