Surell

I just have to point out that your tirade against Hip hop is fundamentally incorrect, as it is born not only out of a similar culture as Punk but ethos as well (i.e. DIY, can't play instruments, pointing out flawed systems, and so on).

And cite dadaism all you want, I don't think that much original punk was that god damned intelligible. It's kinda supposed to dodge pretensions like that. Nothing against Dadaism, but you don't have to participate in it to be opposed to war or politics.

Also, Detroit is cool, it did kinda give us the Stooges.

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Lord Larehip

Even if I accept this as true, there ain't room enough in this town for both of
'em so I pick punk.

That's true of hip-hop. Punk was that way from the beginning. Just look at the MC5--by the mid-60s were free jazz fanatics (Rob Tyner took his name from McCoy Tyner) who were avowed anarchists which they preached from the stage and involved in various anarchist and extreme left causes. And those movements all embraced dada if you ever bothered to check--were founded by dadaists. Punk wasn't born from dada, it was continuation of it. There would have been no punk without dada. That not every punk band knew s-hit about dada doesn't prove anything. I know people who hate the Beatles but love all these bands that never would have existed without them.

There was nothing pretentious about dada. They went head on against the Nazis and some ended up in the camps. They had a hell of a lot more guts than a lot of people today who fancy themselves rebellious when their "tude" consists of nothing but zoning out on ecstasy in a f-ucking rave somewhere, who only get mad when the cops interrupt their party.

Again, that doesn't mean anything because the antiwar consciousness was raised by organizations that were either founded by or spun off of organizations founded by dadaists and other surrealists. The guy carrying a placard protesting a war may not be aware that he's doing this because dadaists came up with it but that's just his ignorance. It's not the reality.

And it also gave us the MC5 so there you go.

Surell

That's a pretty ****ed up way of going about things, seeing as these are intangible subjects.

Well, the Ramones liked jangly pop music and sniffed glue, that may have had just as much influence as dadaism. I'm still pretty adamant in the position that dadaism is not the only reason people opposed war/government. It could have played a part, but I don't think it's the only answer, especially since punks were pretty anti-intellect (i.e., they sniffed glue).

Pretentious may have been the wrong word, I just mean that it's a very intellectual field that punks don't seem like they would gravitate toward since they were so amateurish in so many aspects.



Every single one? I have a hard time believing that.

Indeed.

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Lord Larehip

How do you know what the Ramones were influenced by? Especially if they were from New York, which is home to about every art movement since Paris lost the title of world's art capital. And yes, that's where many of the dadaists went when the Nazis took over. That's where abstract expressionism was born--from dadaists--and it gave birth to political art movements and organizations such as Up Against the Wall Motherf-uckers who were from New York and they were some truly radical bastards--not the nicest people in the world either (picture Hell's Angels as a bunch of street-artists)--but their influence in the counter-culture is inestimable. Now, you're in a punk band playing all the cool clubs in New York, you're going to meet up with some wild, crazy people. I sure did playing in and around Detroit but then this area is the home of the SDS and similar political groups that, again, had a major impact on the counter-culture. I wouldn't assume the Ramones didn't meet people like that, I could almost guarantee they did. I'm sure if I did, they did. Who knows what all influenced them?

Surell

It is true that they may have met and it is possible that they could have got along, but a full on embrace from a bunch of kids whose only interests were sniffing glue, ****ing, and three chord progressions they could hardly play who were also extremely skeptical of people looking to tell them how things should be, so how much they consciously allowed influence to permeate. Also, I would think abstract expressionism would go back to cubism from around the first world war, but maybe that's nitpicking.

Also, the pop isn't too hard to hear in the Ramones' songwriting, but a list of influences are listed on their Wikipedia.

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Lord Larehip

You act like you personally knew this guys. Did you?

Surell

And you implied your own experience was akin to theirs. Is it?

Aside from that, there are basic things you can tell about Punk Rockers, and one of their most fundamental points is skepticism to any authority.

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GuD

The thing about being in one of the biggest musical projects in recent history is that you don't have to know the members personally to know who they were and what they were about. Documentaries, interviews, etc. all confirm what he's saying. The Ramones were a bunch of tough, working class kids from New York who didn't want to be a cover band (the only other option at the time to being a rock star virtuoso), couldn't play like Led Zeppelin, and who wanted to make something different. That ethos was shared by many other bands at the time and is what lives on today. People still feel that way and still have managed to make new and interesting Punk music that sounds different nearly 40 years after Punk's alleged 'Death'. Phil Spector is a HUGE influence on The Ramones, ESPECIALLY on Joey. After they kicked out Tommy as both a drummer and producer, they hired Phil to produce End of the Century. He produced on most of Joey's solo records, too. Do you not know who Phil Spector is? Let me enlighten you:

He invented the "Wall of Sound" approach to production, basically defining 60s pop as well as laying ground work for Shoegaze, Noise Rock, etc.
He's worked with everyone from Tina Turner to The Crystals to The Beatles to The Ramones.
He has a crazy ass hair-do.
He is in jail for shooting a woman in the mouth. Maybe it should've been you.

Every time someone counters your ridiculous hypothesis with FACTS disproving your claims you either ignore them or respond by denying those fact's relevance. You can't make a claim and then filter out any information that inconveniences your claim's agenda- that's called propaganda you ****ing fascist and there's a reason only brain-washed zombies believe it.

I leave you with this:

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I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc