Forward To Death

Hardcore is supposedly founded more in jazz than rock. Wasn't Bad Brains a jazz fusion group at first? That may explain it. Aside from that, there is plenty of 50s rock that I wouldn't call simple, but it isn't what I'd call progressive rock, or free jazz, either.

Janszoon

There's a jazz influence in some hardcore but as a genre it's definitely more rock based than jazz based. The instrumentation, song structures, song lengths, vocals, etc. all come from the rock family tree.

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Forward To Death

Always felt like Bad Brains, and certain Black Flag albums (Specifically My War and In My Head) had a pretty heavy jazz presence. I agree that it's more of a rock based genre, just noted that whole Bad Brains thing about being a jazz fusion band, and how it obviously influenced Black Flag, who were huge BB fans. Agree that rock is the more dominant influence on hardcore, but one could argue that the "sped up" nature of the songs is a jazz influence, since jazz is pretty much the blues, but sped up. You could even make the argument that since rock was influenced by jazz and blues music, then nearly all punk rock has a jazz influence. I mean, you think about it, jazz was the first type of music to emphasize rhythm back in the 20s and 30s, and a lot of the music we listen to today has that.

William_the_Bloody

I'm pretty sure Greg Ginn (guitarist of black flag) experimented with a lot of jazz modes & scales, and your correct about Bad Brains, they were originally a jazz fusion band.

This complexity in hardcore is pretty much an American phenomenon though. I believe it stems from the residual influence of the beatnik counterculture that was still kicking about in the late 70's.

British bands on the other hand, tend to use more traditional rock scales because they've been more culturally influenced by the sing a long pub culture of the UK.

The best modern example of jazz in hardcore today of course would be Dillinger Escape Plan, but to my great annoyance (I don't like off beat time signatures in rock music) its common place amongst many other American hardcore heavyweights like Converge and the Code Orange Kids ect.

Paul Smeenus

East Bay Ray has a jazzy side project, Frenchie

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William_the_Bloody

Well there you go, jazz in engrained in American culture much more than any other Anglophone country.

Crowquill

While it's true that Black Flag, The Dead Kennedys, and Bad Brains have influences beyond standard rock/hardcore I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that this is evidence of hardcore being jazz based. They might be what we think of as hardcore staples but most hardcore is formulaic as fuck and the vast majority of it a) sounds the same b) is not jazzy. I would never accuse most eighties hardcore of being complex or particularly eclectic in their influences.

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William_the_Bloody

Well know your right for the most part, but a lot of American hardcore and post hardcore is not based on simplicity.

Speaking for myself, the jazz influence in a band like Black Flag pretty much set the stage for mathcore and hardcore bands using jazz time signatures. There are even some grindcore bands out there that mix jazz into their music.

Of course the other complexity of music in hardcore is post hardcore. I have never been a big fan of Fugazi but they moved far beyond the simple 4/4 of Minor Threat.

Crowquill

I want to be clear, when I said hardcore, I'm referring pretty exclusively to approximately 80-84 (the first wave of hardcore.) I agree with you this changed dramatically by the late eighties, with crossover thrash bands, post-hardcore bands, et cetera. I was responding to Forward to Death's question about how it was founded as a sound though, which was simplistic rock and not the genre-bending stuff we see today. Hardcore now is all over the place now (obviously - you can take almost any word and add "core" to it and probably find a band it applies to.)

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William_the_Bloody

No I agree with you as well, but I was also agreeing with Paul Seemus's comment. There were some punk bands that had a lot of musical talent from the get go, but yep, early hardcore for the most part was pretty basic.