Mondo Bungle

Cam-who?

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Lord Larehip

What's amusing to me, Mr. Hardcore, is how you changed your avatar from this:



It's called Ubu Imperator and it was painted by Max Ernst, one of the prime formulators of dada. You kept it all the way up to the point where I began talking about dada and then you changed it thinking I wouldn't notice or even thinking I didn't know it was an Ernst painting the instant I saw it. You were afraid if I drew attention to it, it would make you look like a hypocrite--Mr. Punk denying dada had any particular influence on punk while sporting a dadaist avatar. Yep, definite conflict of interest there.

You know, if you'd kept it, I wouldn't have said anything--our little secret. But when you pulled that namby-pamby s-hit, I had to call you out.

Mondo Bungle

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Mondo Bungle

Damn, how'd you know?
You started going off on dada like two days ago, I changed my avatar on 10/7/13

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Lord Larehip

Going back to page 3, my first dada post is dated 8-13 by which time you were already a participant since a post yours appears a couple posts before the one in question.

But have it your way: you chose a dada avatar completely by coincidence. And if that's true (and it is probably is), you proved my point about punk and dada beyond my best expectations. So thanks.

Mondo Bungle

Can you direct me to a post where I personally denied dada's influence on punk? Because I can't find any. You're saying I'm a hypocrite because I'm a punk fan who sported a dada avatar, and changed after you brought it up so it would seem like I'm denying that.

I just wanted a new avatar bro, I've had the Ernst one for two years.
It's a completely valid point that dada influenced punk, hell, I'm the most punk rock kid I know and I did a report on the roots of surrealism in seventh grade. Max Ernst is my all time favorite artist, and Tristan Tzara is one of my all time favorite poets. The latter happens to be the namesake of a punk band.

Dropping dada in a punk song:



Dig?

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Lord Larehip

Well, that isn't punk. Punk NEVER wanted to make it big. Punk stood steadfastly against that. Rap wanted nothing more than to be mainstream. Punk wanted nothing more than to be shunned and reviled by the mainstream.


I’ve had an e-mail from Hannah tucked away, and I’m thrilled to finally respond. Hannah asked whether Dada was really an antiwar movement. There are dissertations about this topic, but I’ll attempt to do it justice in 300 words.
In short, yes: Dada was an antiwar movement. Can art be created independently of the time and political, economic and social conditions in which it’s conceived?
Smithsonian Magazine says that the word “Dada” can be translated as ‘yes, yes’ (Rumanian) ‘rocking/hobby horse’ (French) and loosely interpreted as “foolish naïveté” (German). The movement began in neutral Zurich’s Cabaret Voltaire around 1916. According to the National Gallery of Art, this café was a haven for European artists. It was a safe place to respond to the seemingly nonsensical death toll that World War I was incurring. These responses varied from sound poetry recitations to performance pieces and exhibitions of sculpture and collage culled from everyday media.
Dada was a drastic departure from formal oil-on-canvas paintings. Artist Marcel Duchamp (noted for such works as “L.H.O.O.Q.” and “The Fountain”) found that traditional media and styles of art no longer sufficed: That art was “made for the eye, not the mind.” One of the movement’s forefathers, Hugo Ball, explained that Dada meant to wake up the people of the world who beheld “all this civilized carnage as a triumph of European intelligence.”
Dadaists as well as their critics called the movement anti-art. To the untrained ear and eye, the movement may have been just sound and fury, but it was a serious criticism of the inefficacy of governmental and societal leaders. It aimed to jolt society into a realization that it lived in a grotesque and senseless way. So is Dada still relevant today?

The Dada Antiwar Movement – The Blogs at HowStuffWorks

Two of the greatest shaping forces in twentieth century art were Cubism, and the First World War. We already know about Picasso and Cubism and how he and it changed the way artist have looked at things forever more. What we're not so conscious of is the way this pre-holocaust holocaust impacted art, which at that point in time, was primarily painting (it had an effect on movie-making too, but that's another story). We're accustomed to thinking of "the" anti-war movement as being a product of the 60's and 70's in reaction to the Vietnam War, but far more important in terms of art was the horror of young European artists of the post-World War One period, to that which had practically destroyed their continent. Out of this horror came Dada. It was first and foremost an anti-war movement as much as an art movement. To say the least it was anti-establishment, which included in that day and age, art. It was anti-tradition. It was, in fact, anti-anything-that-had-a-hand-in-plunging-the-world-into-war. At its best it was visionary and idealistic. At its worst, it was nihilistic. In Russia, it was akin to communism. Further west it espoused socialism. Further west still, in this country, it was tied up in a half a dozen other "isms" of one ilk or another.
We speak of the Dada movement in art sometimes with humour, sometimes with dismay, sometimes with a degree of disparagement. But whether we realise it or not, it changed "art" as much as Cubism. In fact it may have changed it more than Cubism because Cubism was largely a painting phenomena. Dada forever broadened the very definition of art, beyond painting, beyond sculpture, even beyond motion pictures. If nothing else it gave us performance art. It gave us multi-media art. It gave us art that very nearly defied definition. It made us look at ourselves as artists for the first time in history in terms of social relevance. Do we mean anything? Are we part of the problem or part of the solution. Is art a vehicle for social change? Should it be?

HumanitiesWeb.org - World War I and Dada

Sure I have. The artistic (anti-artistic) milieu created by dada was what enabled punk to exist. It was the freshly plowed field where the seeds of punk were sown. Your contention that this is not true is saying that punk came out of nowhere all the sudden. NOTHING ever emerges in the arts that way--ever.


????????

Of course the philosophy isn't dead. If that's what you think I am saying, you haven't understood a word I've said. And the art as far as punk music is concerned hasn't changed and that is exactly the problem.

Mondo Bungle

Ok ok ok. I think...I get it. Punk hasn't evolved since it's conception, is that your gripe? I believe so. On the surface, yes, it may seem like there has been no evolution in the scene. Well if we're talking musically, I could direct you to hundreds of bands that would beg to differ. But if punk changed it's ideology, it wouldn't be punk would it? What are you expecting in terms of evolution?

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Neapolitan

Jazz just like any other kind of music can be understood by what scales, rhythm and form (how the music piece/song is constructed) and what types of instruments are used. There is a little more into classification of music genres than just "because it SOUNDS like ..." etc.

There was music (some call it proto-Punk, which is really a retronym) that sounded close to Punk even before what Malcolm McLaren's envisioned the Sax Pistols to be, so the music shouldn't be confined to just one narrow definition. In your example of Free Jazz and Swing Jazz you noticed the difference that Free Jazz doesn't "swing" yet it is "because it SOUNDS like Jazz." Why is it ok for Jazz to take many forms like Swing, Big Band, West Coast Cool Jazz, Free Jazz etc etc and still be Jazz, yet Punk hasn't been Punk since '77 and from a "philosophical standpoint, punk is dead"?

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GuD

You're still completely ignoring underground hip hop.


Dada is antiart, i didn't dispute that. What I disputed was that it was the first act of protest art. Punks from the 70s were POOR. They were the average joes and the hooligan trouble makers with no future because of lack of opportunity. Society has had average joes and hooligans since the beginning of society, such are the makeup of most original blues musicians as well. That's what I meant by punk being a genre by and for the everyman. And no, punk obviously didn't come from nowhere. Nothing can come from nowhere, so far that is scientifically impossible in every way. What I'm saying is punk came from a variety of sources, namely The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, 60s pop/power pop, glam, in some cases dada, you name it. What seperated punk from those things though was that it was a platform that was accessible to ANYONE. That was completely new at the time.

Oh, wait, it isn't dead now? Because that's not what you said before:

Jackass. And yet again you refuse to acknowledge the many examples disproving your bull**** idea that nothing new has happened in punk since the 70s.



It's a wonder you know as much about punk as you do. Anyone who started talking as much **** as you have would've had it been made clear they didn't belong by any punks I've ever known. You're continuing to do what I pointed out before- filtering out any information that discredits your agenda and then going off topic. Once again, that is called propaganda- a handy tool for a fascist clown. Not punk. At all. You're like the guy at the back of the show with your arms folded, scowling, refusing to take part and judging everyone else in the crowd. Your thread is over, son. Get the **** out already. Get that good job at the office, buy yourself a nice little condo in a nice part of town, drive a flashy car, et cetera, ya feels?

All that aside, I will admit it was neat looking at the art pictures. Maybe you should stick to making threads about paintings until you're ready to admit this whole thing is a sham.

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I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc