Nurse Duckett

I have a theory on what the problem might be, I could be wrong but lets give it a go.

My opinion on when punk started seems to be similar to Unknown Soldier and Urban Hatemongers opinion on this subject, and I think I'm right in saying we're all Limeys. The people who don't seem to agree with us appear to be American, I could be wrong, I don't know who anyone is in here. I have noticed over the last couple of decades that America seems to be obsessed with genres, you often see/hear Americans ask what genre are they, and that's a comment you very very rarely hear in Britain, unless you're talking to someone particularly young, under 18. I don't think us Limeys are anywhere near as genre obsessed as the Americans are. Every band or artist seems to have to be put into a specific genre in America, I'm pretty sure its a marketing thing, but with that in mind its kind of understandable that the media powers that be over there would be more than happy to class bands as punk just because it makes them easier to market. Someone told me years ago that Green Day were a punk band, I still haven't stopped laughing, but Green day are classed as a punk band in America.

For a Brit to understand the American view point on this subject the Brit would have to think in genres. The American understanding the Brit would have to forget all about genres.

I'm probably wrong, I usually am.

Newkie

To be honest, isn't it probably just as simple as that? Nationality and what people grew up in/with or were influenced by after the movement? My sister was about 11 in 78 and is vehement Punk is a British invention. I tend to think the culture and style and movement really developed over here, but given I wasn't around/don't pay all that much attention to genre history, I'm only going on opinion. The Ramones, while I don't care for them, were playing punk before Lydon joined the pistols so I can understand any argument for them being the first punk band. But as others have said, I don't think their influence was anywhere near that of the Pistols and asides from them I don't think there was too much going on in New York at the time. An American from that time or who knows that time (a lot better) will probably disagree with that. In either case I really don't see how it can go back before 74/75 though.

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Unknown Soldier

The Ramones presented a humorous side of punk which was quite distinct to the more aggressive and chaotic British model (not all the British bands were like that of course) For this reason anybody wanting to study the punk movement of this time, London and New York present a great contrast and a third contrast would probably be the Australian scene of this time as well.

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Newkie

Yeah definitely true, but I still count that as completely punk though. The Ramones to me are a bit of "we're sh**, let's party" as opposed to Pistols humour of "everything's s**t, let's break more s**t"

I still think we had good humoured punk bands though, although I know there is contention over whether the Stranglers are punk or not, I always thought they were initially and also, pretty funny. But yeah, totally agree with the chaotic nature of British punk and the politicalisation of part of the movement too which seemed to be missing elsewhere. As for Australia, I really know sweet F/A about that scene but it doesn't surprise me they're overlooked, the poor buggers often are.

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The Batlord

As far as I know the only real bands in Australia at the time that punk first started were The Saints and Radio Birdman, who lived in entirely different cities and didn't even know the each other existed. So I don't know if that qualifies as a scene.

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Unknown Soldier

I don't think it was that big at all, I just mentioned it as another English speaking contrast where I know there was a punk scene.

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Lord Larehip

Forget it, Rez. These people are all over the place saying every contradicting thing there is until they don't even know what they're saying anymore. I certainly don't know what they are saying. I saw the Stooges perform many times starting in 1973, when people moshed in front of the stage, when Iggy flipped off the crowd and they flipped back, when he cursed at the crowd between songs and dared them to throw more s-hit at them yelling, "I got your money so f-uck you!" When he jumped shirtless into the crowd and people dragged him around and pounded on him like the side of beef in "Rocky" while the band played on and he whipped it out an urinated at them and then crawled back up onstage bloodied and yelled, "And your girlfriends still want to blow me, you f-ucks!" And they launched right into their next song. My first Iggy show 1973.

Psychedelic, my ass.

Unknown Soldier

This is all good and well and some good nostalgia, but bad behaviour wasn't the sole domain of punk bands. Also Jim Morrison was doing this stuff before Iggy Pop anyway.

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Necromancer

Edit:

The origins of New York's punk rock scene can be traced back to such sources as late 1960s trash culture and an early 1970s underground rock movement centered on the Mercer Arts Center in Greenwich Village, where the New York Dolls performed. In early 1974, a new scene began to develop around the CBGB club, also in lower Manhattan.

After a brief period unofficially managing the New York Dolls, Englishman Malcolm McLaren returned to London in May 1975, inspired by the new scene he had witnessed at CBGB.

Urban Hat€monger ?

Malcolm McLaren was full of sh*t though.

This is a guy who's bright idea to revamp the New York Dolls was to dress them in red leather and align them with the communist party of China.

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