Did Malcolm McLaren Invent Punk? (pop, rock, genre, album)

Urban Hat€monger ? · 02-09-2008, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie

Really, I don't think that makes any sense at all. The Sex Pistols did not create punk, nor were they the first punk band. Perhaps they made it big in England, but punk was all ready alive and thriving in the States.

But it wasn't though.
There might have been the odd band around before but none of them really did anything. It wasn't until the UK bands came alone that it became a movement.
It's no coincidence that as soon as the UK thing happened these American bands came over to the UK trying to align themselves to it. And a lot of the British punks hated them for trying to hijack the movement & saw them as drugged up aging hippies that had no place with them.

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 03:37 PM

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Originally Posted by ADELE

Morrissey saw the Pistols at the same gig in Manchester as Tony Wilson and The Buzz****s and many others on that strange night in the seventies including New Order and others and all formed bands as a result but Morrissey took a while to get hold of Marr.

How does that work when it was Marr that got a hold of Morrissey? Are you even aware of what you're talking about? And wouldn't it be more proper to say Joy Division instead? Because somehow I don't picture hook and co. going "Well guys, we just saw the pistols lets form a band, we'll call it New Order" than running into Ian Curtis and going "Okay, lets ride this Joy Division thing for awhile and put New Order on pause for a bit." The gig was no doubt important but you should at least get your facts straight on it.

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That is fact. The Clash put their formation down to the Pistols.

Really? Because I've found nothing on that I really don't think they did. Strummer was in the 101ers and Rhodes and Jones were in London SS before the Sex Pistols even formed, so obviously they did nothing to peek their interest in music.

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Let's get real, the dolls were trying to be the stones and were not punk. The Stooges were more in line with Alice Cooper in fashion (somewhat) but punk exploded with the Pistols.

Are you talking about punks in terms of fashion now?

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I mean punk music not the word punk or the James dean punk type I mean the genre of music.

Than why are you unwilling to credit anyone to it but the Sex Pistols?

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And McClaren did more then just get Matlock for christ sake, he auditioned them, got them a deal, gigs created the whole thing. I know it isn't easy for some Americans to accept but we Brits invented what we now call punk. We also invented Rave!

I don't think any one band invented punk and there's much more intelligent arguments you could make it for it. It's pretty hard to tell everyone the Sex Pistols invented it when its common fact McClaren saw with Richard Hell was doing and took it to the UK and we had the Sex Pistols (something which you oddly dodged responding to.)

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I can almost already smell the rage and vitirol coming over the pond from Americans whose authors have convinced them that Talking Heads were a punk band ah ha ha!!!! let me have it then!

Despite the fact I've credited it more towards Richard Hell, The Ramones, The Stooges and The New York Dolls...

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I actually think the Ramones were the first punk band but that the genre was really made worldwide by the Pistols.

You're not even getting your own argument straight now.

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I am only winding them up to get a good response.

So now you openly admit to trolling, good job.

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Listen to Bonzo goes to bitburg and Outsider by the Ramones. Love those songs. But they were watching McClaren's moves and getting his ideas in New York.

The Ramones had their own sound well established before the Sex Pistols.

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I am not a fan of his in anyway but credit where credit is due. Just like Tony Wilson and the Rave scene. He did literally create a movement. Remember it was all bloody Rod Stewart and Queen and overblown utter Sh**e and heavy metal till out of the blue came the Pistols to utterly explode music into a whole new way of life.

Yes, he created a movement just like Lou Pearlman years later.

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We wouldn't be if it wasn't for the pistols. If they didn't exist we would not have a section called punk at all.

You realize the Sex Pistols had virtually nothing to do with that thriving scene in New York in the late 70s right? That scene which the Ramones were apart of?

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proto punk as the name suggests comes about after punk was established of there would be nothing to be proto about.

Proto = Before
Post = After

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And the bands in the US in the 70's were nowhere near punk in fashion or politics they were not political just junkies who wanted to be like Jagger and Richards what Rotten despised.

Television wanted to be like the Stones? The Ramones, who wanted to be a pop band like the Bay City Rollers, wanted to be like the Stones? Stop making idiotic statements.

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No politics in their music at all nothinbg for the kids to latch onto or shout about.

Punk is a genre of music, not a political statement. If this is about politics then lets look to Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger who make the Sex Pistols unintelligent anti-queen mess look childish.

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The US bands were just in it for money and drugs.

Once again another unfair generalization.

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he Jam were more MOD like the Who (two of the best bands ever) but punk is called punk and exists today in forum names and as a genre because of the sex pistols.

Even though it was a term and genre of music before the Sex Pistols?

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Why don't people ever accept the reality? Back up your arguements guys if you comment so I can tear your arguements apart!!! Great forum and debate. Keep it coming.

Here's the ironic part seeing as I'm backing up my argument more than you are.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizzie

Really, I don't think that makes any sense at all. The Sex Pistols did not create punk, nor were they the first punk band. Perhaps they made it big in England, but punk was all ready alive and thriving in the States. If you don't think the Stooges were the first punk rock band, then the Ramones were, and they gave the kids plently to 'shout about', (not to mention they had their own little fashion statement as well) and I think that without the Sex Pistols, punk rock would still have been a promininte genre in music. And back to the original argument, McLaren may have created the Pistols imaige, but from my understanding, imagie was not all that punk rock was, at least not back then. Music played a huge role, and last time checked, McLaren did not create their music. They do not for a second

deserve to be credited with the creation of punk rock, nor does McLaren.
This thread is dumb.

I will give you this concession. Maybe the Ramones were the first punk band. I love the Ramones so I can sleep with that fact but the Ramones saw the Dolls and McClaren and were inspired to a great extent but also I don't know if we would be calling it punk today if the pistols had not then inspired the Clash (by far the best punk band, possibly the best band ever) and the era was born. The Ramones were only known by a handfull of people in CBGB's and benefited from the wave of punk from the UK. The band made the music I agree so the pistols deserve credit along with Malcolm.

I mean, someone has to take it to the masses around the planet and Never Mind The Bollox did that. Malcom orchestrated the whole media plan and hype that got punk rock it's definition in modeern times.
Got to go now Malcy is coming round for a pint!!!!
I am right as I am in so many things.

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADELE

I will give you this concession. Maybe the Ramones were the first punk band. I love the Ramones so I can sleep with that fact but the Ramones saw the Dolls and McClaren and were inspired to a great extent but also I don't know if we would be calling it punk today if the pistols had not then inspired the Clash (by far the best punk band, possibly the best band ever) and the era was born. The Ramones were only known by a handfull of people in CBGB's and benefited from the wave of punk from the UK. The band made the music I agree so the pistols deserve credit along with Malcolm.

I mean, someone has to take it to the masses around the planet and Never Mind The Bollox did that. Malcom orchestrated the whole media plan and hype that got punk rock it's definition in modeern times.
Got to go now Malcy is coming round for a pint!!!!
I am right as I am in so many things.

Punk would've happened with or without the Sex Pistols, seeing as it was already happening. They made it popular and certainly inspired a bunch of bands to get started (I'm still waiting to see some links on this Clash thing...) but that doesn't mean they created it.

right-track · 02-09-2008, 03:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Crowquill

The Ramones, who wanted to be a pop band like the Bay City Rollers

Good God!...is that true?

jackhammer · 02-09-2008, 03:49 PM

Is McClaren paying Adele to post here?

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 03:51 PM

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Originally Posted by right-track

Good God!...is that true?

It was Joey the most I think but they were all fans and wanted to be a bubblegum group. Hey Ho Lets Go was even borrowed from a Bay City Rollers song I think. Have you listened to End of the Century?

right-track · 02-09-2008, 03:57 PM

I will never see the Ramones in the same light again.

I think Adele is right about The Pistols being the driving force for the Clash though.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 04:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Crowquill

How does that work when it was Marr that got a hold of Morrissey? Are you even aware of what you're talking about? And wouldn't it be more proper to say Joy Division instead? Because somehow I don't picture hook and co. going "Well guys, we just saw the pistols lets form a band, we'll call it New Order" than running into Ian Curtis and going "Okay, lets ride this Joy Division thing for awhile and put New Order on pause for a bit." The gig was no doubt important but you should at least get your facts straight on it.
Yes I am aware of that but I assumed you would be too if you are into punk as they formed after the Manchester gig as Joy division and later New Order but I am talking about the attitude behind them all and Morrissey was there too but whether he found Marr of Marr found him is geek talk as he was inspired to make music and later formed the Smith's but cited them as inspiration (amoung others.)

Really? Because I've found nothing on that I really don't think they did. Strummer was in the 101ers and Rhodes and Jones were in London SS before the Sex Pistols even formed, so obviously they did nothing to peek their interest in music.

Yeah and have you seen pictures of them? They were trottling out crap and Strummer said he was past all that overblown crap and wanted something new and when he saw the pistols he was inspired. Listen to The album Story of the Clash and he says it on the Album between tracks then come back and take back your words okay. Of course people were in bands and into music. Everyone is into some kind of music. But the explosion of creativity and attitude that captured the planet was due to the Pistols like they all say Elvis invented rock n roll but chuck berry and others were around before him. But he made everyone young on the planet get into it.

Are you talking about punks in terms of fashion now?
Fasion music attitude politics anarchy creativity not been able to play that well to get your message across

Than why are you unwilling to credit anyone to it but the Sex Pistols?

Because noone would have heard of it except anoracks had it not been for the pistols and there would not today be a whole section of music about it.

I don't think any one band invented punk and there's much more intelligent arguments you could make it for it. It's pretty hard to tell everyone the Sex Pistols invented it when its common fact McClaren saw with Richard Hell was doing and took it to the UK and we had the Sex Pistols (something which you oddly dodged responding to.)

He didn't see what he was doing at all. He thought he was a prick. He just thought what a great idea it would be to get some kids and make them stars so perhaps he did form the first boy band. He created them (without realising their actual talent) as a marketing ploy and gimmick a glorious mess.

Despite the fact I've credited it more towards Richard Hell, The Ramones, The Stooges and The New York Dolls...

You're not even getting your own argument straight now.

So now you openly admit to trolling, good job.

No I don't admit to that.

The Ramones had their own sound well established before the Sex Pistols.

I will give the Ramones the title maybe. Perhaps it could be the Ramones. This is what debate is about my friend. I still think the pistols created the era and made it historic along with the Clash and others. I am talking about worldwide as a movement of ideals and politics and DIY music where kids felt inspired and formed bands.

Yes, he created a movement just like Lou Pearlman years later.

You realize the Sex Pistols had virtually nothing to do with that thriving scene in New York in the late 70s right? That scene which the Ramones were apart of?

It may have been thriving in one club for about 200 people but the pistols toured the mid west and their album got all america noticing and not just a club with a few hundred locals.

Proto = Before
Post = After

Was jesus the first punk or was it moses? where do you start? I am not into dictionary definitions

Television wanted to be like the Stones? The Ramones, who wanted to be a pop band like the Bay City Rollers, wanted to be like the Stones? Stop making idiotic statements.

Yes SIR!

Punk is a genre of music, not a political statement. If this is about politics then lets look to Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger who make the Sex Pistols unintelligent anti-queen mess look childish.

Politics is not just about intellgence as George W will testify. it is about an ideal or a vision or a revolution forcing change. Would the Ramones have changed anything really? But bloody great band.

Once again another unfair generalization.

Even though it was a term and genre of music before the Sex Pistols?

No it wasn't and it certainly would not have lasted and gained it's own niche if you credit the dolls and maclaren was their manager then what are you saying? WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? Think my friend think.

Here's the ironic part seeing as I'm backing up my argument more than you are.

I think it is now two nill to me!

right-track · 02-09-2008, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by ADELE

I think it is now two nill to me!

While ethans draughting out a 3 page response, I have to ask the question...how?

02-09-2008, 03:49 PM	#26 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	Is McClaren paying Adele to post here? __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”

02-09-2008, 03:57 PM	#28 (permalink)
right-track Atchin' Akai Join Date: May 2005 Location: Unamerica Posts: 8,723	I will never see the Ramones in the same light again. I think Adele is right about The Pistols being the driving force for the Clash though.