Yes or No? Tales from Trollographic Oceans

Queen Boo · 02-16-2023, 07:28 AM

I think most prog bands make music for themselves, the self indulgence is a feature of the genre, not a bug.

Lisnaholic · 02-16-2023, 07:55 AM

I agree mainly with Drive and Queen Boo about this album: lots to like about the big band numbers, though the solo efforts are a mixed bag. I like We Have Heaven, though I would've liked it more without the open/close door gimmick.

And here's Queen Boo on The Fish:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Boo

it starts out very simple and only becomes more complex as it builds up with each bass overdub carefully layered over each other and I think it sounds f*cking awesome specially when the vocals come in, also the way Howe's guitar solo at the end of Long Distance Runaround segues into it is really cool.

Yep, to me this track has a structure similar to Würm, but this time they take it to another level and get it right.

Quote:

Even Cans and Brahms is pretty charming in it's own kitschy way even if it is the weakest moment on the album, the reason Wakeman chose to cover Brahms for his solo track is because he was still signed with another label as a solo artist and wasn't able to have songwriting credits on the album so he couldn't use one of his own compositions.

Well, this is a sad reason to spoil an album by putting in a track that is so out of place. Wakeman should've had the good grace to stand down completely if that was the case, or do something that was writ by one of his new bandmates.

Quote:

Roundabout is a track everyone agrees is great but Heart of the Sunrise is the real highlight for me and it's the one that comes closest to the symphonic sound they would achieve with the next album which I'm well aware Troll also dislikes, I don't agree at all that it's lacking in structure or memorable melodies, there's a neat new hook being added like every 30 seconds, I admit the first time I heard it I thought the transitions from one section to another were too abrubt but the more I listened to it the more I realized how it all came together. It's one of my favorite Yes songs.

Like most Yes songs, Heart Of The Sunrise has loud complex band instrumental sections interspersed with the real gems: Jon Anderson's melodies. With the recurring line, "...on to the heart of the sunrise" this track has a wonderful lurching build up to the climactic section:

Dream on ... on to the heart of the sunrise
Sharp ... distance
How can the wind, with its arms all around me?
Sharp ... distance
How can the wind, with so many around me?
I feel lost in the city

That's the high point of the album, imo.
Other tracks:
Mood For A Day fits in much better on this album than its equivalent, The Clap, did on The Yes Album. It's a very welcome, soothing respite amidst all the pyrotechnics going on elsewhere on Fragile.
Five Percent Of Filler Piece is pretty useless, imo, but Roundabout is so good that JAnderson's 30-second outro hardly gets a mention. It's beautiful, and with lyrics that even Trollheart could sing along to: Dadadada Da Da Dup

Queen Boo · 02-16-2023, 08:29 AM

Bruford was the least enthused of the band about writing a solo track which is why his is so short, but honestly I like Five Per Cent for Nothing just fine, it's a little 30 second goof and it's over before you know it.

The title of that track was a swipe at the band's former manager getting a deal for 5% of the band's royalties.

Also the fact it has it's own Wikipedia article is pretty funny.

Trollheart · 02-16-2023, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Queen Boo

I think most prog bands make music for themselves, the self indulgence is a feature of the genre, not a bug.

Well now, every band writes music for themselves first, and hope the fans enjoy it, but if we're going to compare the two: Genesis mostly wrote their songs as group efforts; there were few if any instrumentals and the only instance I can see that you could point to someone "showing off", as I said Yes do a lot, would be maybe Hackett on "Horizons", and even then it's a beautifully understated little piece. No member of Genesis, that song excepted, wrote a song or piece that was specifically for and about them, as Yes seem to do. And I can sing every single Genesis song (with the exception of much off FGTR) whereas I can sing only those four albums from Yes, as mentioned.

Yes do show off: it's not just me who thinks this. This is the sort of beginning of the, not quite pointless but often unnecessary wankery that led to blots on the soundscape like Dream Theater and even to some extent Spock's Beard and maybe Riverside. You have to take it all with the caveat that I don't like, and know I don't like, early Yes, so the argument/debate is probably pointless and one on which we'll each score points but never come to an agreement. Nevertheless, I stand by everything I've said here. If something impresses me that I had not heard before on one of these albums I will say it; I'm not going to be so pig-headed as to say no I still hate it if I don't, but I find it hard to see my mind being changed at this point.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 02-16-2023, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Well now, every band writes music for themselves first, and hope the fans enjoy it, but if we're going to compare the two: Genesis mostly wrote their songs as group efforts; there were few if any instrumentals and the only instance I can see that you could point to someone "showing off", as I said Yes do a lot, would be maybe Hackett on "Horizons", and even then it's a beautifully understated little piece. No member of Genesis, that song excepted, wrote a song or piece that was specifically for and about them, as Yes seem to do. And I can sing every single Genesis song (with the exception of much off FGTR) whereas I can sing only those four albums from Yes, as mentioned.

Yes do show off: it's not just me who thinks this. This is the sort of beginning of the, not quite pointless but often unnecessary wankery that led to blots on the soundscape like Dream Theater and even to some extent Spock's Beard and maybe Riverside. You have to take it all with the caveat that I don't like, and know I don't like, early Yes, so the argument/debate is probably pointless and one on which we'll each score points but never come to an agreement. Nevertheless, I stand by everything I've said here. If something impresses me that I had not heard before on one of these albums I will say it; I'm not going to be so pig-headed as to say no I still hate it if I don't, but I find it hard to see my mind being changed at this point.

I think at this point maybe we're talking about degrees of Prog: Bands like Yes and ELP could probably be classified as, like, Ultra Prog whereas bands like Genesis are more like Prog Lite. In my book bands like Genesis and Pink Floyd are only somewhat Proggy. And I get that some people aren't into the more Ultra Prog style of stuff even if they like the other kinds of Prog.

But it seems a bit harsh to me to call stuff "wankery" just because it's got a lot of lengthy instrumentals?

I mean, a Rachmaninoff piano concerto is a long and elaborate instrumental whose main purpose is to let the musician show off. So why can't Rock musicians do that too?

Trollheart · 02-16-2023, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriveYourCarDownToTheSea

I think at this point maybe we're talking about degrees of Prog: Bands like Yes and ELP could probably be classified as, like, Ultra Prog whereas bands like Genesis are more like Prog Lite. In my book bands like Genesis and Pink Floyd are only somewhat Proggy. And I get that some people aren't into the more Ultra Prog style of stuff even if they like the other kinds of Prog.

But it seems a bit harsh to me to call stuff "wankery" just because it's got a lot of lengthy instrumentals?

I mean, a Rachmaninoff piano concerto is a long and elaborate instrumental whose main purpose is to let the musician show off. So why can't Rock musicians do that too?

Okay well now we have to fall out. Prog ****ing lite? Genesis were one of the bands who bloody created prog, along with Yes and ELP and so forth. No way will I take that. Prog lite my arse. And seriously? Comparing a prog instrumental to a classical concerto? Now come on. Did I ever say I hated instrumentals? I'm a fan of Vangelis and Carbon Based Lifeforms, and love most post-rock. I love instrumentals. But - and here's the important bit you for some reason seem to have missed - instrumentals that GO somewhere! Most of the stuff I labelled wankery is just that: it's pointless, directionless (to me) noodling so someone can say "look at how good on the guitar/keys/bass/insert as appropriate I am". If someone writes a piece of music that I can't follow or see any real structure in, and it seems nothing more than an exercise in smugness and showoffery, yes, that's wankery to me. Odd, some may say: thought all prog was wankery? But I can't point to a single instance of wankery in the bands I enjoy. Not off-hand anyway, and certainly not with Genesis. Okay, the ****ing Brazilian on Invisible Touch probably is, but that album is pretty much ****e anyway. Hardly prog at all. Genesis know how to write songs and don't/didn't have to bolster up their egos with solo pieces that showcase their own talents and have little if any other value.

Genesis? Prog lite? Fight me. This actually smacks of more like prog snobbery to me. Oh, you don't understand REAL prog. Well once again I say, I know what I like, and Yes just don't do it for me. Nevertheless, I don't condescendingly relegate them to some made-up sub-sub-genre of prog because they play differently. Genesis deserve more respect than that.

Look, I don't like Yes, at least, early Yes. Deal with it. I'm not going to keep arguing the toss and try to justify my dislike of them. Maybe something here will click, I don't know. But overall I think you can generally keep your seventies Yes and I'll have the eighties and possibly later. And ABWH.

I've no wish to denigrate any of the albums; these are merely my own impressions and what I hear. But to label bands who are prog icons but who don't measure up to some superior idea of what prog is as prog lite is simply just not on. At all.

Queen Boo · 02-16-2023, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Well now, every band writes music for themselves first, and hope the fans enjoy it, but if we're going to compare the two: Genesis mostly wrote their songs as group efforts; there were few if any instrumentals and the only instance I can see that you could point to someone "showing off", as I said Yes do a lot, would be maybe Hackett on "Horizons", and even then it's a beautifully understated little piece. No member of Genesis, that song excepted, wrote a song or piece that was specifically for and about them, as Yes seem to do. And I can sing every single Genesis song (with the exception of much off FGTR) whereas I can sing only those four albums from Yes, as mentioned.

Genesis are less flashy than other prog bands yeah but they still liked their extended instrumentals, especially on Selling England which just happens to be my favorite album of theirs.

I also wouldn't say one member of Genesis never dominates, I consider Genesis to be Tony Banks's band first and foremost, not only because he was the primary composer but because his keyboard playing dominates a lot of their songs, there's a lot of songs especially on Lamb (which I still love) where Hackett doesn't seem to have much of a presence, his reduced role in the band contributed a lot to his departure.

As for Yes yeah The Yes Album does feel like the Steve Howe show sometimes, but Fragile and Close to the Edge strike a perfect balance when it comes to the contributions of all the band members.

Quote:

Yes do show off: it's not just me who thinks this. This is the sort of beginning of the, not quite pointless but often unnecessary wankery that led to blots on the soundscape like Dream Theater and even to some extent Spock's Beard and maybe Riverside. You have to take it all with the caveat that I don't like, and know I don't like, early Yes, so the argument/debate is probably pointless and one on which we'll each score points but never come to an agreement. Nevertheless, I stand by everything I've said here. If something impresses me that I had not heard before on one of these albums I will say it; I'm not going to be so pig-headed as to say no I still hate it if I don't, but I find it hard to see my mind being changed at this point.

Of course Yes show off, I never said they didn't, I can't even deny they show off more than a lot of the other big name prog bands, but they had the hooks to back it up, where as a band like Dream Theater doesn't as far as I'm concerned, it's not Yes's fault Dream Theater sucks lol.

But yeah it's all subjective, either it clicks with you or it doesn't and it can be hard to explain why.

Trollheart · 02-16-2023, 08:12 PM

That's fair comment. I was in fact responding to DYCDTTS not yourself. I would agree Banks dominated a lot of the Genesis material, but I still feel he never took over on any solo material on the band. The intro to "Firth of Fifth" is of course all him, but then he gives room to the others to flex their muscles. I guess "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats" is all him, but again it's part of the overall soundtrack laid down by Gabriel. I just don't get the same idea of someone saying "I want to show how cool I am with this" in Genesis as seems to come across in Yes. Much of what I've heard so far seems like it could have just been left off and they could have concentrated on writing a few more collaborative songs.

But as you say, it's all relative and subjective. There's no way I'm letting anyone call Genesis prog lite though without a bloody and bitter fight to the end (or till one of us squeals anyway). I don't expect to have any great revelations any time soon - I know I'll still shrug at Close to the Edge - but we'll see after that. It won't bother me. I'm happy for Yes to have their place in prog history, and undoubtedly the genre benefitted from their presence, and they deserve all their plaudits. But they just don't do it for me. Not yet, anyway.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 02-16-2023, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Okay well now we have to fall out. Prog ****ing lite? Genesis were one of the bands who bloody created prog, along with Yes and ELP and so forth. No way will I take that. Prog lite my arse. And seriously? Comparing a prog instrumental to a classical concerto? Now come on. Did I ever say I hated instrumentals? I'm a fan of Vangelis and Carbon Based Lifeforms, and love most post-rock. I love instrumentals. But - and here's the important bit you for some reason seem to have missed - instrumentals that GO somewhere! Most of the stuff I labelled wankery is just that: it's pointless, directionless (to me) noodling so someone can say "look at how good on the guitar/keys/bass/insert as appropriate I am". If someone writes a piece of music that I can't follow or see any real structure in, and it seems nothing more than an exercise in smugness and showoffery, yes, that's wankery to me. Odd, some may say: thought all prog was wankery? But I can't point to a single instance of wankery in the bands I enjoy. Not off-hand anyway, and certainly not with Genesis. Okay, the ****ing Brazilian on Invisible Touch probably is, but that album is pretty much ****e anyway. Hardly prog at all. Genesis know how to write songs and don't/didn't have to bolster up their egos with solo pieces that showcase their own talents and have little if any other value.

Genesis? Prog lite? Fight me. This actually smacks of more like prog snobbery to me. Oh, you don't understand REAL prog. Well once again I say, I know what I like, and Yes just don't do it for me. Nevertheless, I don't condescendingly relegate them to some made-up sub-sub-genre of prog because they play differently. Genesis deserve more respect than that.

Look, I don't like Yes, at least, early Yes. Deal with it. I'm not going to keep arguing the toss and try to justify my dislike of them. Maybe something here will click, I don't know. But overall I think you can generally keep your seventies Yes and I'll have the eighties and possibly later. And ABWH.

I've no wish to denigrate any of the albums; these are merely my own impressions and what I hear. But to label bands who are prog icons but who don't measure up to some superior idea of what prog is as prog lite is simply just not on. At all.

On the contrary, I like Genesis, I just don't think they're as "Proggy" as bands like Yes and ELP. Prog, by definition, is rock that is more complex than standard rock. So, if it is really complex and even unstructured, then it is more "Proggy" than prog bands that are less complex.

And you're misunderstanding my usage of the terms "Ultra" and "Lite." These were not intended as better/worse judgement terms. They were supposed to notate more/less complexity, that is all. "Ultra" prog (bands like Yes) is just more complex than "Lite" prog (bands like Genesis).

IMO the unstructured nature of a lot of Yes' stuff is their appeal. So much popular music is so predictable and formulaic that it's nice to have some unpredictable stuff out there to listen to.

Trollheart · 02-16-2023, 08:16 PM

I don't agree with that at all, but yeah, we'll just put a pin in it. Get your best vitriol ready for the next one: I'm sure I'll be tarred and feathered...

02-16-2023, 08:12 PM	#68 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	That's fair comment. I was in fact responding to DYCDTTS not yourself. I would agree Banks dominated a lot of the Genesis material, but I still feel he never took over on any solo material on the band. The intro to "Firth of Fifth" is of course all him, but then he gives room to the others to flex their muscles. I guess "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats" is all him, but again it's part of the overall soundtrack laid down by Gabriel. I just don't get the same idea of someone saying "I want to show how cool I am with this" in Genesis as seems to come across in Yes. Much of what I've heard so far seems like it could have just been left off and they could have concentrated on writing a few more collaborative songs. But as you say, it's all relative and subjective. There's no way I'm letting anyone call Genesis prog lite though without a bloody and bitter fight to the end (or till one of us squeals anyway). I don't expect to have any great revelations any time soon - I know I'll still shrug at Close to the Edge - but we'll see after that. It won't bother me. I'm happy for Yes to have their place in prog history, and undoubtedly the genre benefitted from their presence, and they deserve all their plaudits. But they just don't do it for me. Not yet, anyway. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

02-16-2023, 08:16 PM	#70 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	I don't agree with that at all, but yeah, we'll just put a pin in it. Get your best vitriol ready for the next one: I'm sure I'll be tarred and feathered... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018