The Future of Prog looking forward, Grim?

Trollheart · 01-02-2016, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

The problem is that one could argue that 'Progressive" means we have to leave the instruments in their cases and do all the music on a computer.

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I struggle to see how this could be the case. I honestly dont' understand what they're saying. If they mean just make music on computer, fine, but that's electronic/ambient music, not prog rock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Um. That's an interesting view on it, I guess.

I'm with this guy, as above. He MAKES his own instruments!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

The older generation that grew up on big band and classical music thought all rock music was silly and lacked serious musicianship. Bringing in trained musicians into rock did give the genre a new sense of validity to the older folks who wrote it off an just nonsense.

Again, I don't see what you're saying. You're advocating the idea that just because say Blackmore was classically trained that the older generation suddenly afforded him validity, and ignored the fact he wore leather trousers and had long hair, and played one of them eel-ek-tronic gee-tars instead of an upright bass like most normal folks??

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Yeah. Like I said. Dumb. And I highly doubt any Frank Sinatra fans were that enthused about Yes.

x2

Tributary Records · 01-02-2016, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I struggle to see how this could be the case. I honestly dont' understand what they're saying. If they mean just make music on computer, fine, but that's electronic/ambient music, not prog rock.

I'm with this guy, as above. He MAKES his own instruments!

Again, I don't see what you're saying. You're advocating the idea that just because say Blackmore was classically trained that the older generation suddenly afforded him validity, and ignored the fact he wore leather trousers and had long hair, and played one of them eel-ek-tronic gee-tars instead of an upright bass like most normal folks??

x2

There are plenty of kids trying to make prog rock on their computers. There are all kinds of drum kit programs, bass, guitars, keys… everything. They try to construct it, and often do, all on a laptop without ever learning an instrument.

What it lacks is the human feel and touch (and there are now programs for that as well).

An instrument vibrates when you play it in real time. That vibration affects the way you play and what you are playing. The computer doesn't do that. It lacks vibration.

If you can't do it live, you're just pretending. There is a lot of pretending going on.

**Frownland** · 01-02-2016, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

There are plenty of kids trying to make prog rock on their computers. There are all kinds of drum kit programs, bass, guitars, keys… everything. They try to construct it, and often do, all on a laptop without ever learning an instrument.

What it lacks is the human feel and touch (and there are now programs for that as well).

An instrument vibrates when you play it in real time. That vibration affects the way you play and what you are playing. The computer doesn't do that. It lacks vibration.

If you can't do it live, you're just pretending. There is a lot of pretending going on.

If you turn your speakers up you can feel the vibration from the electronic instruments. In my experience people who moan about how electronic instruments suck are generally people who have heard embarrassingly little of those instruments. Can you show me some of this computer prog that all of these kids are apparently doing these days? I get the feeling your imagining this big movement as a way to make your "them damn kids don't even know what music is!" sentiment. Like I said earlier, you seem to be good ole daysin pretty hard.

The Batlord · 01-02-2016, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

There are plenty of kids trying to make prog rock on their computers. There are all kinds of drum kit programs, bass, guitars, keys… everything. They try to construct it, and often do, all on a laptop without ever learning an instrument.

What it lacks is the human feel and touch (and there are now programs for that as well).

An instrument vibrates when you play it in real time. That vibration affects the way you play and what you are playing. The computer doesn't do that. It lacks vibration.

If you can't do it live, you're just pretending. There is a lot of pretending going on.

Plenty of artists who play "real" instruments don't play live. Plenty of artists who play electronic instruments and such do. Concerts are just one aspect of music, and to equate them with musical quality is small-minded. What matters is the end product, whatever that product may be.

Tributary Records · 01-03-2016, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

If you turn your speakers up you can feel the vibration from the electronic instruments. In my experience people who moan about how electronic instruments suck are generally people who have heard embarrassingly little of those instruments. Can you show me some of this computer prog that all of these kids are apparently doing these days? I get the feeling your imagining this big movement as a way to make your "them damn kids don't even know what music is!" sentiment. Like I said earlier, you seem to be good ole daysin pretty hard.

Referring to the creation part of the music, not playback.

If you hold a guitar or trumpet in your hands, it vibrates when you play it in real time, and that affects the player with instant feel and feedback.
That doesn't happen when you are copy and pasting sound files on a computer.

It all needs to be explored, but there is a difference between a person that actually plays an instrument and those who don't. Sound collaging on a computer may be digital art, but it is not playing an instrument.

The Batlord · 01-03-2016, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

Referring to the creation part of the music, not playback.

If you hold a guitar or trumpet in your hands, it vibrates when you play it in real time, and that affects the player with instant feel and feedback.
That doesn't happen when you are copy and pasting sound files on a computer.

It all needs to be explored, but there is a difference between a person that actually plays an instrument and those who don't. Sound collaging on a computer may be digital art, but it is not playing an instrument.

How much digital music have you actually created? Cause from the way you talk about it, it sounds like a lot.

Neapolitan · 01-03-2016, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

The older generation that grew up on big band and classical music thought all rock music was silly and lacked serious musicianship. Bringing in trained musicians into rock did give the genre a new sense of validity to the older folks who wrote it off an just nonsense.

I thought I give you a fair warning to you The Batlord is trolling and probably said that to get a rise.

What he said about the inferiority complex is totally rubbish. Chris Squire was a fan of the Pop band, Fifth Dimension, and their session bass player was Joe Osborn, who Chris cites as a favorite. And he imagine Yes to be a cross between 5th Dimension and (say) Iron Butterfly, when the band first started out.

Choosing underground music over Pop is no more a inferiority complex as than choosing Pop over underground music. Whatever the choice, people are generally confident in the music they like, with not much thought of what else is out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

I think 70's style prog is far from being exhausted in originality. If you look at what you had then, the blending of styles, all of those styles could be explored in much more detail.

Complex Latin Rock: Santana
Classical Rock: YES, Renaissance.
Complex Folk Rock: Jethro Tull
Jazz Rock: Mahavishnu Orchestra
Complex Surrealism Rock: Gabriel era Genesis
Complex Metal Rock: Scorpions, UFO
Psychedelic Rock: Pink Floyd
Synth Rock: Tangerine Dream
Funk Rock: Stevie Wonder
Complex Blues Rock: Led Zeppelin
Complex Comedy Rock: Frank Zappa
Complex Acid Jazz Rock: King Crimson, Gentle Giant

I think there could be another 10 bands that explore each of those sub genres with slight variations that would not necessarily sound overly derivative. A different vocalist, unique soloists, composers etc. There is still a lot of room. There is no reason we could not have had another 30 or 40 years of really interesting rock music that would fall under the style of 70's progressive rock.

Actually each band drew from more directions musically. When Keith Relf and Jim McCarty left the Yardbirds and formed Renaissance they wanted a band to explore more Classical, Folk and Jazz elements.

Yes only drew directly from Classical (Art music) for so long. They always evolved as a band. Then they switched to a more Jazz oriented style in Relayer. Which coincided with the rise of Jazz fushion bands in the mid 70s. Even Joni Mitchell moved away from Folk and explored more Jazzy stuff. Yes drew inspiration from the time. The Prog band change with time, explored new territory. Thrakattak is different 21st Schizoid Man.

I think what is different from today's Prog than the 70s is that today they go after having a signature sound of Prog, instead of blending a variety of musical sounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

For example, I don't think there ever was a band that really did complex Indian Rock, or took that where it could have gone. You certainly had artists dabbling there, but there could have been a band that really nailed it in a way Santana did with Latin rock.

There were probably some, maybe not that well known. Take for instance the nephew of Ravi...
Ananda Shankar-Streets Of Calcutta

I don't know about Indian Prog Rock but there is indie Indian Rock
elephant stone - don't you know

I listen to indie mostly. And every other genre like Acid Folk, Stoner Rock, Space Rock, Psychedelia, post-Punk, Surf, minimal Wave psych folk are being explored. I think cause of Youtube and all that is available that was once obscure there could be a new era of Prog waiting around the corner.

**Frownland** · 01-03-2016, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tributary Records

Referring to the creation part of the music, not playback.

If you hold a guitar or trumpet in your hands, it vibrates when you play it in real time, and that affects the player with instant feel and feedback.
That doesn't happen when you are copy and pasting sound files on a computer.

It all needs to be explored, but there is a difference between a person that actually plays an instrument and those who don't. Sound collaging on a computer may be digital art, but it is not playing an instrument.

Computers have changed a little bit since the 1940s. You can create electronic music (that doesn't even sound electronic sometimes) in real time. Do you also dislike synthesizers? They don't vibrate with you when you play them and all they do is put effects on sounds, so are they really instruments?

grindy · 01-03-2016, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Computers have changed a little bit since the 1940s. You can create electronic music (that doesn't even sound electronic sometimes) in real time. Do you also dislike synthesizers? They don't vibrate with you when you play them and all they do is put effects on sounds, so are they really instruments?

He also still didn't name a single example of this supposed computer prog all those kids are supposedly making today.

Tributary Records · 01-03-2016, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Computers have changed a little bit since the 1940s. You can create electronic music (that doesn't even sound electronic sometimes) in real time. Do you also dislike synthesizers? They don't vibrate with you when you play them and all they do is put effects on sounds, so are they really instruments?

A synth is like an effect for a guitarist. It's a keyboard running through a signal process. The player performs and the sound is heard instantly through an amp as they are playing so there is real time feedback.

Copy and pasting sound clips around in a computer program is not playing an instrument. It may be digital sound collaging, but it's not playing an instrument.

Yes, you can create music through computer sound collaging, but it should not be confused with a musician playing an instrument in real time.

A painter should not be confused with someone taking a picture with their iPhone, then using one of the digital programs to simulate a painting from that image.

One also should understand the different between reflective light and pixelated light. All the world around us is seen through reflective light except for the artificial light we see coming from electronic monitors. It's different and affects us differently.