Welcome to Trollheart's Fortress of Prog!

Trollheart · 01-17-2023, 11:12 AM

But wait a minute. I'm confused.

Why should I delete it??

Trollheart · 01-19-2023, 07:47 PM

Back to this again. Another band I just can’t get to grips with, even though apparently they’re supposed to be one of the biggest prog bands in Canada. I would imagine that position is reserved for Rush, and maybe Mystery might have a thing or two to say about it also, but from what I read and from general consumption of prog over the last four decades or so, Saga are very respected. Yet every time I hear a song from them I increasingly think “meh”. I get the impression more of a kind of mix of AOR and Pomp Rock from them, kind of the way I look at Styx, another band I know little of, beyond their hit singles. Maybe I’ve just been hearing the wrong random tracks on my playlist, but every time I see the name come up I roll my eyes, and I usually find it’s the correct reaction. However I’ve not yet heard a full album, so let’s rectify that now.

Current status:

Quick Bio: Formed in 1977 and released their first album to collective yawns, but have since gone on to sell over eight million albums and had chart hits, though I doubt anyone outside the progsphere would know them. I certainly don’t, and I’m in the progsphere! They also released some sort of mad concept thing called The Chapters, with the songs all mixed up for some reason.

Albums I have heard: None

I’m not at all familiar with the band, so I’ve looked through prog websites to find out what the albums are that are regarded as their best, and it seems to be these. As I'll usually be doing my best to go chronologically, we’ll start off with this one.

Images at Twilight (1979)

This is their second album and when it kicks off I have to say I’m immediately put in mind of my old muckers, The Alan Parsons Project. Is that a good or bad thing? I guess we’ll see. The vocalist reminds me of one of the Arena singers, again is that a plus or a minus? It’s not of course necessary, and I don’t suggest it is, but I see no long tracks on this album. No suites, nothing over five or six minutes. Two of those Chapters things are on this, but I’m not really fussed about that. I’m sure Saga fans are aghast at my dismissal of what is seen as surely a very important part of the mythology and music of their band, but at this point all I want to do here is see if I can get into them. I’ll admit the opener is not at all bad, sort of has a Pendragon “Back in the Spotlight” feel about it, and yes, I’m quite aware this was nine years before Nick and Co. put their second album out. Just the impression it gives me. It’s a decent opening, no doubt, but then the APP influences persist through the second track, even more so in fact, very close to their “Pyramania”. Usage of the vocoder is interesting and the guitar work is good. However at the moment good is as good as it gets, if you understand. I haven’t heard anything that has really made me sit up and take notice, and nothing that has even come close to encouraging me to change my mind.

“Slow Motion”, I must admit, is very annoying and throwaway, a track that really doesn’t seem to go anywhere and hovers between new-wave and a sort of half-pomp sound; kind of reminds me of a faster China Crisis or something. Some nice thick keys coming in later help to solidify the sound of it, but I’d say it’s the one I like least, and I haven’t been impressed with anything yet. I feel the next one may be a ballad, but I’m wrong. “You’re Not Alone” starts off with biting guitar and then has a peppy keyboard line but again I find myself grinding my teeth. I don’t know what it is about these guys, they just seem to rub me up the wrong way. I’m not at all crazy about the singer either; I don’t feel he has the sort of voice that goes well with progressive rock. We’re back to a kind of early Pendragon feel here, and yes I know Saga were first, I’m just saying that that’s what it reminds me of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05lyvwvFhG4
I see Wiki has them categorised as “progressive rock/new wave”, at least this album, and I’d agree with that: there’s definitely a sense of almost eighties pop from this and I think it waters down the prog elements, at least for me, and sort of confuses me. What is it I’m listening to? I’d say maybe the closest could be progressive pop, which I’m sure Saga fans will want to hang me by a certain piece of my anatomy for, but it’s what comes across to me. And not even a “harder” prog pop like It Bites: this just seems to be a fish out of water, not sure what it wants to be. I wonder as we go along will I come across a real progressive rock album from this band, or is this as, um, good as it gets? All I can say at this point is I’m glad this is a short album, with eight tracks, and I’m now halfway through it.

“Take it or Leave it” might be a good motto for me with this band, but we’ll give them a chance. I do find, even on this one album, the same sort of melodies, rhythms and arpeggios repeating through various tracks, which for me makes it very predictable. This one is catchy enough, to be fair, but again it’s nothing special. I read reviews of this album and I find myself asking are we listening to the same record? Maybe those people want something different from prog, but as the title of my Prog History thread says, I know what I like, and at the moment I really can’t say I like this much. I do however like the rippling piano that introduces “Images (Chapter One)” and the whistling keyboard melody that accompanies it. It’s the longest track, just over six and a half minutes, so it’s either going to be instrumental or a ballad I would think, and it’s the latter, as the vocal comes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIHoW5dTXs
I’d certainly say it’s the standout on the album, but then, it doesn’t have very much competition. Perhaps though this is an example of the real Saga peeking through, an indication of what the band can do when they knuckle down seriously? On the other hand, it could be an aberration, something we’re not likely to hear again on subsequent albums. Whichever is the case, it’s certainly got my notice, so if the album maintains this kind of quality to the end it might not be a totally hopeless case for me. “Hot to Cold”, though, has a nice bouncy arpeggio opening it, but this I think is the main problem I have with Saga: everything seems to be uptempo, light, breezy and sort of whimsical. I don’t hear much in the way of, I don’t know, stately keyboard passages, acoustic guitar, violin, any particularly long instrumentals. I still say that if they weren’t tagged as such I would be very unlikely to consider this band any sort of progressive rock at all. Way too poppy for my tastes, at least on this album. And we close on “Mouse in a Maze”, with an interesting acapella vocal opening, driven then on hard guitar with quite a Brian May feel to it and yet again those APP themes all over the place. There’s a bit more about this track, a little more maturity perhaps, taking themselves a shade more seriously right at the end. At least it’s something. But is it too little too late? Yeah. Yeah, I think it is.

Track listing

1. It’s Time (Chapter Three)
2. See Them Smile
3. Slow Motion
4. You’re Not Alone
5. Take It or Leave It
6. Images (Chapter One)
7. Hot to Cold
8. Mouse in a Maze

At the end of this first album, I can’t say I’m any more impressed than I was before I began, which is not at all. Maybe things will change with the second and third album I sample, but so far this has only confirmed my belief that this is a band I’m unlikely to ever get into, or frankly, want to.

Has anything on this album impressed me at all? I can sort of dig “It’s Time”, I think “Mouse in a Maze” is a good closer and maybe, maybe a pointer to better things, and “Images” is a great ballad, so there could be hope. Maybe.

Result for this album:

Result so far:

rubber soul · 01-20-2023, 06:34 AM

If you like early Styx, you're gonna love this one.

Queen Boo · 01-20-2023, 07:44 AM

I don't like to use the term "guilty pleasure" that much but if Mr. Roboto is not it I don't know what is.

Btw have you taken a good look at that design for Mr. Roboto? Because yikes.

Chula Vista · 01-20-2023, 08:35 AM

Looks like some bizarre mashup between Max Shreck and Daft Punk.

Trollheart · 01-20-2023, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubber soul

If you like early Styx, you're gonna love this one.

I know that one - crazy song but fun - and I know "Babe" (duh) and I think that's about it with Styx. I'll probably feature them here at some point too, whether it will be in this section or not I don't know, but I should check more of their stuff out.

Chula Vista · 01-20-2023, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

but I should check more of their stuff out.

Please Please Please do not review Mr. Roboto. There's already been way more than enough written about that gross miscalculation of a..... I was going to say album but that's too kind..... TRAINWRECK!

Think most fans would agree, The Grand Illusion is far and away their best work and more than worthy of an inclusion in this thread.

Trollheart · 01-20-2023, 10:46 AM

Your passionate plea has been noted, and will be discussed at the next board meeting. We will advise you of our decision in six to eight weeks. Thank you.

Synthgirl · 01-20-2023, 03:34 PM

Styx are a guilty pleasure of mine, honestly. If nothing else they always had killer synth parts. For all his Broadway rock corniness, Dennis DeYoung had absolute taste in synths.

Queen Boo · 01-20-2023, 03:45 PM

To me Styx were the ultimate jack of all trades master of none band of the 70s. Hard rock, prog rock, yacht rock, they did it all, and always with a hefty topping of cheese.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Looks like some bizarre mashup between Max Shreck and Daft Punk.

Well that and it's an absurdly racist Japanese caricature.

01-17-2023, 11:12 AM	#141 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	But wait a minute. I'm confused. Why should I delete it?? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

01-19-2023, 07:47 PM	#142 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Back to this again. Another band I just can’t get to grips with, even though apparently they’re supposed to be one of the biggest prog bands in Canada. I would imagine that position is reserved for Rush, and maybe Mystery might have a thing or two to say about it also, but from what I read and from general consumption of prog over the last four decades or so, Saga are very respected. Yet every time I hear a song from them I increasingly think “meh”. I get the impression more of a kind of mix of AOR and Pomp Rock from them, kind of the way I look at Styx, another band I know little of, beyond their hit singles. Maybe I’ve just been hearing the wrong random tracks on my playlist, but every time I see the name come up I roll my eyes, and I usually find it’s the correct reaction. However I’ve not yet heard a full album, so let’s rectify that now. Current status: Quick Bio: Formed in 1977 and released their first album to collective yawns, but have since gone on to sell over eight million albums and had chart hits, though I doubt anyone outside the progsphere would know them. I certainly don’t, and I’m in the progsphere! They also released some sort of mad concept thing called The Chapters, with the songs all mixed up for some reason. Albums I have heard: None I’m not at all familiar with the band, so I’ve looked through prog websites to find out what the albums are that are regarded as their best, and it seems to be these. As I'll usually be doing my best to go chronologically, we’ll start off with this one. Images at Twilight (1979) This is their second album and when it kicks off I have to say I’m immediately put in mind of my old muckers, The Alan Parsons Project. Is that a good or bad thing? I guess we’ll see. The vocalist reminds me of one of the Arena singers, again is that a plus or a minus? It’s not of course necessary, and I don’t suggest it is, but I see no long tracks on this album. No suites, nothing over five or six minutes. Two of those Chapters things are on this, but I’m not really fussed about that. I’m sure Saga fans are aghast at my dismissal of what is seen as surely a very important part of the mythology and music of their band, but at this point all I want to do here is see if I can get into them. I’ll admit the opener is not at all bad, sort of has a Pendragon “Back in the Spotlight” feel about it, and yes, I’m quite aware this was nine years before Nick and Co. put their second album out. Just the impression it gives me. It’s a decent opening, no doubt, but then the APP influences persist through the second track, even more so in fact, very close to their “Pyramania”. Usage of the vocoder is interesting and the guitar work is good. However at the moment good is as good as it gets, if you understand. I haven’t heard anything that has really made me sit up and take notice, and nothing that has even come close to encouraging me to change my mind. “Slow Motion”, I must admit, is very annoying and throwaway, a track that really doesn’t seem to go anywhere and hovers between new-wave and a sort of half-pomp sound; kind of reminds me of a faster China Crisis or something. Some nice thick keys coming in later help to solidify the sound of it, but I’d say it’s the one I like least, and I haven’t been impressed with anything yet. I feel the next one may be a ballad, but I’m wrong. “You’re Not Alone” starts off with biting guitar and then has a peppy keyboard line but again I find myself grinding my teeth. I don’t know what it is about these guys, they just seem to rub me up the wrong way. I’m not at all crazy about the singer either; I don’t feel he has the sort of voice that goes well with progressive rock. We’re back to a kind of early Pendragon feel here, and yes I know Saga were first, I’m just saying that that’s what it reminds me of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05lyvwvFhG4 I see Wiki has them categorised as “progressive rock/new wave”, at least this album, and I’d agree with that: there’s definitely a sense of almost eighties pop from this and I think it waters down the prog elements, at least for me, and sort of confuses me. What is it I’m listening to? I’d say maybe the closest could be progressive pop, which I’m sure Saga fans will want to hang me by a certain piece of my anatomy for, but it’s what comes across to me. And not even a “harder” prog pop like It Bites: this just seems to be a fish out of water, not sure what it wants to be. I wonder as we go along will I come across a real progressive rock album from this band, or is this as, um, good as it gets? All I can say at this point is I’m glad this is a short album, with eight tracks, and I’m now halfway through it. “Take it or Leave it” might be a good motto for me with this band, but we’ll give them a chance. I do find, even on this one album, the same sort of melodies, rhythms and arpeggios repeating through various tracks, which for me makes it very predictable. This one is catchy enough, to be fair, but again it’s nothing special. I read reviews of this album and I find myself asking are we listening to the same record? Maybe those people want something different from prog, but as the title of my Prog History thread says, I know what I like, and at the moment I really can’t say I like this much. I do however like the rippling piano that introduces “Images (Chapter One)” and the whistling keyboard melody that accompanies it. It’s the longest track, just over six and a half minutes, so it’s either going to be instrumental or a ballad I would think, and it’s the latter, as the vocal comes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIIHoW5dTXs I’d certainly say it’s the standout on the album, but then, it doesn’t have very much competition. Perhaps though this is an example of the real Saga peeking through, an indication of what the band can do when they knuckle down seriously? On the other hand, it could be an aberration, something we’re not likely to hear again on subsequent albums. Whichever is the case, it’s certainly got my notice, so if the album maintains this kind of quality to the end it might not be a totally hopeless case for me. “Hot to Cold”, though, has a nice bouncy arpeggio opening it, but this I think is the main problem I have with Saga: everything seems to be uptempo, light, breezy and sort of whimsical. I don’t hear much in the way of, I don’t know, stately keyboard passages, acoustic guitar, violin, any particularly long instrumentals. I still say that if they weren’t tagged as such I would be very unlikely to consider this band any sort of progressive rock at all. Way too poppy for my tastes, at least on this album. And we close on “Mouse in a Maze”, with an interesting acapella vocal opening, driven then on hard guitar with quite a Brian May feel to it and yet again those APP themes all over the place. There’s a bit more about this track, a little more maturity perhaps, taking themselves a shade more seriously right at the end. At least it’s something. But is it too little too late? Yeah. Yeah, I think it is. Track listing 1. It’s Time (Chapter Three) 2. See Them Smile 3. Slow Motion 4. You’re Not Alone 5. Take It or Leave It 6. Images (Chapter One) 7. Hot to Cold 8. Mouse in a Maze At the end of this first album, I can’t say I’m any more impressed than I was before I began, which is not at all. Maybe things will change with the second and third album I sample, but so far this has only confirmed my belief that this is a band I’m unlikely to ever get into, or frankly, want to. Has anything on this album impressed me at all? I can sort of dig “It’s Time”, I think “Mouse in a Maze” is a good closer and maybe, maybe a pointer to better things, and “Images” is a great ballad, so there could be hope. Maybe. Result for this album: Result so far: __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

01-20-2023, 08:35 AM	#145 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	Looks like some bizarre mashup between Max Shreck and Daft Punk. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

01-20-2023, 10:46 AM	#148 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Your passionate plea has been noted, and will be discussed at the next board meeting. We will advise you of our decision in six to eight weeks. Thank you. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

01-20-2023, 03:34 PM	#149 (permalink)
Synthgirl Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2023 Location: Cheeseland USA Posts: 155	Styx are a guilty pleasure of mine, honestly. If nothing else they always had killer synth parts. For all his Broadway rock corniness, Dennis DeYoung had absolute taste in synths.