Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

He's not projecting lol
It's actually possible to read the intention or judgement or thoughts etc. behind what people say, like you're trying to do when you assume Guybrush is projecting

I'm not literally reading his intention, etc. The reason I said that is that what he's saying isn't actually in what we're talking about. So it must be coming from somewhere. I'm simply assuming that that would be his view.

How do you believe that we can literally read mental content such as intentions, thoughts, meanings, etc. into expressions correlated with the same? Can you explain the epistemic process there?

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I'm not literally reading his intention, etc. The reason I said that is that what he's saying isn't actually in what we're talking about. So it must be coming from somewhere. I'm simply assuming that that would be his view.

How do you believe that we can literally read mental content such as intentions, thoughts, meanings, etc. into expressions correlated with the same? Can you explain the epistemic process there?

Context, non-verbal communication, and lots of other things. I'd never thought the forum's resident Autism Girl would ever get to explain these things to someone

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

Context, non-verbal communication, and lots of other things. I'd never thought the forum's resident Autism Girl would ever get to explain these things to someone

So explain how you believe it works.

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

I'd like a thread of "Zappa Fans Who Disagree With Terrapin's Take On Meaning" please. Because I'm not remotely buying into this idea:-



"Five disgusting cockroaches" Does this term depend on what an individual has in mind? How can it mean anything except a precise number of insects that the speaker dislikes? If an individual has "three nice ponies" in mind, that's a misinterpretation; it's not, imo, an equally valid, subjective way to think about the term "five disgusting cockroaches".
(Examples of "five" not meaning 5 and "disgusting" used in a way that is not negatively judgemental would be appreciated, plus, for good measure, a subjective meaning for cockroach that is significantly different from what I'll find if I google "cockroach".)
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I'm guilty of contributing to this underratement. I never listen to Läther, and I can't remember why.

We can do a semantics (philosophy of meaning) thread if you like, and I'll explain how meaning does and doesn't work for you, where you can argue with me all you like, and in infinite patience I'll keep working on your understanding until you finally do understand or until you give up, but maybe there's a more appropriate subforum for it here? Do we have an off-topic subforum?

Originally Posted by Frownland

Zappa intended it to be a ultra lengthy release but the studio made him spread it out across several albums (Zappa in New York, Studio Tan, Sleep Dirt, Orchestral Favorites, and various bonus tracks). Some tracks are early variations from how they were originally released iirc. I'm partial to it because I think it flows really well and encompasses a lot of different sides of Zappa.

I've never bought that story, by the way.

Originally Posted by Guybrush

As I already stated, it took me a while (years) to arrive at my current position. I don't want FZ to have been sexist. However, I also don't want to be blind to it and either way I can't really unsee it.

I suggested you bring up some evidence to support your position. Seriously, I would like to be proven wrong. Having played with some of the guys isn't really much in the way of that.

Whereas I've provided sources for many of my claims, you seem to assume much about FZ's moral views and values. I think you're more guilty of projecting than I am.

What I've seen a few times now are attempts to veer the debate into philosophical discussion. I guess one of a couple of reasons you do this is because in a world where general attitudes towards sexism have changed, you have done some convoluted, philosophical mental gymnastics that allow your ideas about sexism to stay relatively unchanged. Those same or similar mental gymnastics can be used to defend FZ against attacks on his moral views. I could be wrong, but this is the impression I get.

Don't stunt your growth.

I already explained the problems with your scant sources. I can explain it again, although you'll just repeat the above again, of course.

There are serious philosophical problems with the views fueling the belief that sexism, racism, etc. are rampant at present. I'm more than happy to get into as detailed of a discussion about that as you'd like to get into. (But again, we should probably do it in an off-topic subforum if we have one.)

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

So explain how you believe it works.

Nice try

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

Nice try

Odds on whether I expected you to actually provide an explanation of how you believe it works?

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Odds on whether I expected you to actually provide an explanation of how you believe it works?

I don't need to. The only thing that's relevant is that it works, which you just demonstrated by understanding my sarcasm even though I didn't explicitly state it

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

I don't need to. The only thing that's relevant is that it works, which you just demonstrated by understanding my sarcasm even though I didn't explicitly state it

Communication doesn't work via literally knowing someone's meaning, intent, etc.

You don't think that I'd have the views I do but not be able to account for how communication works, do you?

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

There are serious philosophical problems with the views fueling the belief that sexism, racism, etc. are rampant at present. I'm more than happy to get into as detailed of a discussion about that as you'd like to get into. (But again, we should probably do it in an off-topic subforum if we have one.)

I can't guarantee that I'd want to partake in such a discussion (I'm here for enjoyment and am somewhat selective), but if you do create that thread in the current events, philosophy & religion forum, I'll at least take a look at it. I'm fairly sure it'll get at least a few pages worth of discussion (with or without my participation).