Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

At this point I have granddaughters even.

I don't agree that just because lyrics are focused on sex that they're somehow saying that "a female's worth only derives from sexual activities."

It's not the focus on sex. Rather, it's the contempt and condescension coupled with it. At worst, you could make a case for rapey, like when saying that women will be funked in the ass (which is fine) and have little say in the matter (which is not okay).

I don't mind sex at all, but Frank doesn't always communicate healthy ways to go about it. Those songs are for guys, which saddens me a little bit.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't see how you're not reading "contempt and condescension" into it though.

Re "Broken Hearts" I don't think you're even understanding that song or the lyrics at all. That whole last section simply grows in a word-play way out of "Well, ladies you can be an @$$hole too; You might pretend you ain't got one on the bottom of you, But don't fool yerself girl," where as was usually par for the course, the "ram it up your poop shoot" was probably an inside joke about something someone in the band or on the crew said. That was the source of a lot of Zappa's lyrics.

I've been an FZ apologist too, still am sometimes. And sure, there could be inside joke reasons that could make a lyric look worse than what is actually meant, but having to resort to convoluted explanations to explain away gross lyrics.. Even that in itself shows that there are some problems.

In Bobby Brown, we have lines like: "I'll let her do all the work and maybe later I'll rape her". In fembot in a Wet T-shirt, we get lines like "I really need the fifty bucks you know. I gotta get home!" - "Yeah, I know, your father is waiting for you in the tool shed". You don't see condescension or contempt here? Of course, any FZ apologist will point out that Frank uses characters here and Bobby Brown is meant to be awful (rapist homosexual sadomasichist), but that's not always the case.

Take a verse out of Jewish princess where he doesn't hide behind any character:

I need a hairy little Jewish Princess (la-la-la)
With a brand new nose, who knows where it goes (wee-ohh)
I want a steamy little Jewish Princess (shh)
With over-worked gums, who squeaks when she cums
I don't want no troll
I just want a Yemenite hole

You mean this is not derogatory, shows contempt or condescension?

Or easy meat:

Saw her tiny titties
Through her see-through blouse
I just had to take the girl to my house
Easy meat

Slightly sillier example, but upon discovering that his girlfriend has gone missing (eaten by the devil) in the song "Titties n beer", Frank's reaction is this:

"where's those titties i like so well, 'n' my goddam beer!" Is what i started to yell

Clearly the important thing about his girl - and what concerns him - are the tittays.

I don't consider myself a prude. I don't have problems with portrayals of sexuality between men and women. I just think it would be better if they were respectful. In his songs, Frank uses terms like "crew slut" or "easy meat" which are in themselves derogatory and objectifying. This would be okay too if it happened on occasion, but the impression I have is that Frank is pretty much unable to tackle the theme of man-woman sexuality without somehow being disrespectful to women. He's disrespectful to everyone, so of course, but this particular side of him especially hasn't aged well (imo).

[Terrapin_Station]

I don't want to get into increasingly longer posts each round, but just for example, take this:

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Frank uses terms like "crew slut" or "easy meat" which are in themselves derogatory and objectifying.

So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

[bob_32_116]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't want to get into increasingly longer posts each round, but just for example, take this:


So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

"Groupie"?

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by bob_32_116

"Groupie"?

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

I'm not sure what you're asking there. Are you not familiar with what a groupie is?

Zappa has a song called "Crew Slut" that's about groupies (or perhaps a particular groupie that he had in mind) who were (was) known for hooking up with the crew. (Groupies often do this as an eventual "in" to the band, but some also just like crew guys.)

Originally Posted by Guybrush

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

It wouldn't be the same song if you would be "describing her joy off having sex with the band", because it's from the perspective of a band that wants to get laid in any town possible.

Frank Zappa has created for all of his songwriting this character of a seditious, cynical joker. That was his idea, and it doesn't seem to actually hurt anyone. He's a quite different person when interviewed – full of reserve, reason and sense. Also he is certainly the last person to actually think that a girl having sex with band members is a "slut" or anything, so why bother?

Well, and I don't think "slut" is meant as something with a negative connotation. Zappa certainly doesn't think that it's something negative for a woman to like having sex with crew members (and this song is about the crew, not the band).

We're also overlooking the way that "crew slut" fits the tune musically--the rhythm of the phrase, the way the phonemes work in the musical phrase, etc. All of that stuff is very important. You'd have to write at least slightly different music if you're changing the lyrics.

Originally Posted by elphenor

rap metal sounds like it could be your favorite genre

Rap metal/rap rock/groove metal/funk metal/nu metal, which I lump all together, is one of my favorite subgenres (of a list of about 50 favorite genres/subgenres)

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I am not calling everyone "pretentious" in fact I'm doing the opposite. I am trying to divert that accusation being levied against someone who thinks independently both on a philosophical and on a creative level.

"Pretentious" is one of the dumber terms of criticism anyway.

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by bob_32_116

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them.

What albums were the ones you've heard?
He has a couple distinctive phases, very different from each other

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't want to get into increasingly longer posts each round, but just for example, take this:


So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

If you can't think of a way then maybe you should question your position.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

If you feel like you do need a term, I think bob's suggestion "groupie" covers it in a way which is both explanatory and less derogatory.

Edit:

Originally Posted by bob_32_116

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

I hope you do check him out. Musically, he's just about the most interesting character from US rock history with a ton of great material. Around 1980, he goes in for shock value. He was a bit of a misanthrope and for a while, I do think he enjoyed notoriety and wanted to give the middle finger to the people who wanted to censor him. He grew out of it and spent his last years focusing more on classical, jazz and modern experimental music. You can easily avoid his "gross" period by avoiding the records made around 1980, though aside from some tasteless jokes, they're still clever, funny and musically great (especially Joe's Garage for me).

My favourite album is The Mothers' One Size Fits All which, to most people, should be unproblematic. He also made gorgeous stuff like this:

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

Because that was the idea for the song. Not every little thing in culture and art has to be respectful towards others and political correct.
It wouldn't be the same song if you would be "describing her joy off having sex with the band", because it's from the perspective of a band that wants to get laid in any town possible.

Frank Zappa has created for all of his songwriting this character of a seditious, cynical joker. That was his idea, and it doesn't seem to actually hurt anyone. He's a quite different person when interviewed – full of reserve, reason and sense. Also he is certainly the last person to actually think that a girl having sex with band members is a "slut" or anything, so why bother?

Art is something else than, let's say political speeches, etc. You're allowed to do or say anything that is in line with your artistic idea or persona.

Cut artists a break, it's not like making a song about a "crew slut" is being a nazi.

[Also, it's a damn good song musically speaking – but that's what it's like with Zappa: amazing music and dumb/disgusting/funny lyrics]

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't think

The crux of these overly defensive points.