Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2183141)

There goes that crap reading comprehension again.

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2183141)

How is anyone supposed to be persuaded by your hermeneutic abilities (for issues like this) when you continually show such rudimentary reading comprehension problems? I'm guessing you're probably an Aspie?

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2183143)

I wouldn't trust a retard like me so you definitely shouldn't.

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2182945)

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic (Post 2183167)

Well, this thread certainly spun off in an unexpected diriection, and since p36 it makes for some interesting reading. If I may add a couple of comments:

I got lost in some of the pages of rarified semantics and debating points, but I agree with Guybrush's assessment of FZ; the man, the conduct, the lyrics put together suggest a genuinely-held mysoginistic attitude imo.

I would dispute both sentences in this post, Terrapin:-



i) "Slut" is negatively judgemental, at least in the UK. For that reason, "You're a slut!" is used as strong insult, intended to shock and hurt. Like other insults, it is also sometimes used with a kind of jokey application between friends, the way you might tell a buddy to "F off" without meaning it offensively. That special use, imo, doesn't alter the fact that the word "slut" can be read as negatively judgemental, unless there is context that makes clear otherwise.

ii) Surely this is exactly how meaning works? When we want to, we choose words that convey our judgement:
"That painting is colourful." = no judgement
"That painting is garish." = negative judgement
"He's a stallion" = approval
"He's a creep" = disapproval
Aren't those all examples of "necessary connotation"?

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2183179)

Meaning is subjective. It depends on what an individual has in mind, how the individual is thinking about the term in question. There's no necessary way to think about a term, positive, negative, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Guybrush (Post 2183182)

Based on information from interviews, books, song lyrics, articles, cultural/historical context etc. I see little reason to assume Frank Zappa had a subjective interpretation without negative connotation for the word "slut".

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station (Post 2183185)

First, all meaning is subjective period. But this seems bizarre to say. Zappa didn't seem to associate a negative connotation at all to the word "slut." I don't associate a negative connotation to it, either--quite the opposite rather. Zappa didn't find it negative or problematic or anything that men and women enjoyed sex. He was very pro enjoying sex.

Originally Posted by Marie Monday (Post 2183186)

Because a negative attitude towards enjoying sex and a negative attitude towards promiscuous women is totally the same thing

Originally Posted by Guybrush (Post 2183187)

Butcher was upset when Zappa did not see her point of view. Something clicked in her mind when she saw feminist campaigners in the news. "I saw a banner that said: 'Love me less, respect me more.' And I just thought: 'Yes. That's it.'" Butcher read Kate Millett's Sexual Politics, which came as a revelation to her, as it did to many women at that time. Excitedly, she told Zappa what she had realised. "I thought he'd be sympathetic, but he wasn't, completely the opposite."[/i][/indent]