Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Frownland

lyrically affirming traditional demeaning roles of either being childlike, sex objects, or quite often both to the point of being a prejudice.

Doesn't "lyrically affirming traditionally demeaning roles" hinge on meaning and interpretation?

[Frownland]

Now read the rest of the sentence that clarifies which traditionally demeaning roles I'm referring to.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Doesn't "lyrically affirming traditionally demeaning roles" hinge on meaning and interpretation?

Agree to disagree then?

[jadis]

I believe there's room for dialogue between the traditions (Foucault, for one, definitely thought so and sought to escape being pigeonholed as "another one of those French philosophers" toward the end of his life, when he spent all that time in Berkley) but have neither the philosophical training nor the inclination to explore this. Sometimes you gotta stay in your lane and enjoy the ride, or something like that...

Originally Posted by adidasss

He collects and sells cards. :/

The selling part redeems him, some might say, though I don't know the details. If the whole thing is not entirely for profit then yes, he too.

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one.

Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know.

Again, it's not Frank. It's like calling Leonardo DiCaprio a schizophreniac because he played in Shutter Island, or calling Mick Jagger a satanist because he sang Sympathy for the Devil. Taking on a role, a pose does not make someone racist or sexist.

If Zappa was acting this way in real life – his everyday life – that would make him misogynistic. If he is consciously writing lyrics that are supposed to be scandalous, shocking or anything of this sorts, then he is not misogynistic.

In my original comment I was only trying to say that I don't get it why this discussion about Zappa hass to be so ad personam towards him. The poor bastard never dd nothing wrong as far as I recall.
And a lot of people find his lyrics rather funny (sure, some more, some less, some not at all) than spiteful (our meant to offend anyone – maybe apart religious people).

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Now read the rest of the sentence that clarifies which traditionally demeaning roles I'm referring to.

Oy vey. The old "If it wasn't in the quotation, it wasn't read."

Again, doesn't "lyrically affirming traditionally demeaning roles" hinge on meaning and interpretation?

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

Again, it's not Frank. It's like calling Leonardo DiCaprio a schizophreniac because he played in Shutter Island, or calling Mick Jagger a satanist because he sang Sympathy for the Devil. Taking on a role, a pose does not make someone racist or sexist.

If Zappa was acting this way in real life – his everyday life – that would make him misogynistic. If he is consciously writing lyrics that are supposed to be scandalous, shocking or anything of this sorts, then he is not misogynistic.

In my original comment I was only trying to say that I don't get it why this discussion about Zappa hass to be so ad personam towards him. The poor bastard never dd nothing wrong as far as I recall.
And a lot of people find his lyrics rather funny (sure, some more, some less, some not at all) than spiteful (our meant to offend anyone – maybe apart religious people).

Yeah, that's part of it. It's the stupid tendency to read lyrics as if someone is writing a confessional or a diary or something. It's as dumb as taking Stephen King to have murderous, psychopathic and/or sadistic tendencies because of what he writes in his novels. But it's also ignorance re interpretation of semantic content, too.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Mucha

If Zappa was acting this way in real life – his everyday life – that would make him misogynistic. If he is consciously writing lyrics that are supposed to be scandalous, shocking or anything of this sorts, then he is not misogynistic.

In my original comment I was only trying to say that I don't get it why this discussion about Zappa hass to be so ad personam towards him. The poor bastard never dd nothing wrong as far as I recall.
And a lot of people find his lyrics rather funny (sure, some more, some less, some not at all) than spiteful (our meant to offend anyone – maybe apart religious people).

He doesn't always hide behind characters. And perhaps you didn't read the whole discussion, but I already commented on the real world FZ. Banging groupies was his vice, to his wife's dismay. He says so on camera, adding that Gail grumbles, but what's she gonna do? She's his wife.

When Marc Maron asks Moon Zappa on his podcast about weird things growing up in the Zappa household, she tells him they had groupies living with them. He also managed the GTOs which was a group made up of groupies.

The very likely reason his vices don't come up much is because if you are a documentary maker, you need access to material - the Zappa vault. You're not gonna get it unless you cooperate with Gail Zappa/the estate and agree to terms that will basically protect the legacy of FZ.

Gail is fiercely protective of FZ's legacy and everything else, even suing the Zappanale festival for using the iconic Zappa stache in their marketing.

He was by and large a good dude and a genius, but by no means a saint. You believe he was above misogyny?

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

He doesn't always hide behind characters. And perhaps you didn't read the whole discussion, but I already commented on the real world FZ. Banging groupies was his vice, to his wife's dismay. He says so on camera, adding that Gail grumbles, but what's she gonna do? She's his wife.

When Marc Maron asks Moon Zappa on his podcast about weird things growing up in the Zappa household, she tells him they had groupies living with them. He also managed the GTOs which was a group made up of groupies.

The very likely reason his vices don't come up much is because if you are a documentary maker, you need access to material - the Zappa vault. You're not gonna get it unless you cooperate with Gail Zappa/the estate and agree to terms that will basically protect the legacy of FZ.

Gail is fiercely protective of FZ's legacy and everything else, even suing the Zappanale festival for using the iconic Zappa stache in their marketing.

He was by and large a good dude and a genius, but by no means a saint. You believe he was above misogyny?

There's nothing misogynistic about having sex with groupies.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

Oy vey. The old "If it wasn't in the quotation, it wasn't read."

Irony alert.

Again, doesn't "lyrically affirming traditionally demeaning roles" hinge on meaning and interpretation?

Do you think I care about your leading questions?

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

There's nothing misogynistic about having sex with groupies.

No (though Gail didn't approve), but the lyrics coupled with the stories make it seem like he didn't really respect women.

From his secretary:

Butcher moved to the US and became his full-time secretary, despite the lack of convention with which the role was first suggested to her: "Do you think if we ****ed, you could still work for me as my secretary?" Zappa asked.

...

But gradually she began to experience moments of clarity. When Butcher heard one of the "Mothers" – the members of Zappa's backing band, the Mothers of Invention – say he felt sorry for one groupie because she had been with three different musicians on consecutive nights, she became irritated, since the men who behaved that way were congratulated for "scoring". Or as she says, with understatement: "I began to notice the double-standard."

Butcher was upset when Zappa did not see her point of view. Something clicked in her mind when she saw feminist campaigners in the news. "I saw a banner that said: 'Love me less, respect me more.' And I just thought: 'Yes. That's it.'" Butcher read Kate Millett's Sexual Politics, which came as a revelation to her, as it did to many women at that time. Excitedly, she told Zappa what she had realised. "I thought he'd be sympathetic, but he wasn't, completely the opposite."

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...nk-zappa-women

I'm sure I've read he for a while used to give trophies to groupies for ****ing him, which also seems a little narcissistic and condescending.