Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

**Frownland** · 08-28-2021, 07:44 AM

It's the level of seriousness that the uncritical fanboy stance deserves.

jadis · 08-28-2021, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

That is not what I said. I didn't say Frank just deemed them "pretentious." Zappa had a decent amount of self-awareness and often express reasonable and legitimate critism against those things mentioned. Frank Zappa didn't "deem" those things "pretentious" willy nilly and in the deeming of those thing "pretentious" thus made them so.

Then you reduce the meaning of "pretentiousness" to something not being liked. Frank Zappa doesn't like "X, Y, and Z" and ironically there are people who don't like Frank Zappa. Who's to say who is more disliked? ... err "pretentious?"

Seems like the source of our disagreement is that you implicitly view ideas as reified essences, as independent entities; whereas I view them as sites of contestation, definitionally tied to a certain perspective that puts down a stake contra other perspectives.

I indeed don't particularly care for the term "pretentious" - the perspectives it's tied to are usually not ones I'm impressed with.

As opposed to Zappa. What a talent.

I'm a Beefheart guy, not a Zappa guy, but there's so much to admire about Frank. My "unpopular opinion" about him would be that his very finest hour was his very last release, the orchestral Yellow Shark.

**Frownland** · 08-28-2021, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

My "unpopular opinion" about him would be that his very finest hour was his very last release, the orchestral Yellow Shark.

I prefer The Perfect Stranger but I agree on his orchestral works being his best.

jadis · 08-28-2021, 08:54 AM

Yeah that's definitely one of his masterpieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Bruh, everyone on MB is basically a goddamn nerd.

Mindfulness might be the one exception. He seems like a wonderfully eccentric dude but I wouldn't call him a nerd.

adidasss · 08-28-2021, 09:42 AM

He collects and sells cards. :/

Guybrush · 08-28-2021, 09:43 AM

The point that seems perpetually lost on Terrapin and probably Mucha is it's not Crew Slut. It's every song that features women in any capacity. It's in the bovine perspiration of Dynah Moe-Humm and in the tiny mustaches of the Catholic Girls. Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one.

Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know.

If you're locked into your position or simply don't agree, that's fine. We don't have to agree.

Terrapin_Station · 08-28-2021, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

It's the level of seriousness that the uncritical fanboy stance deserves.

"Critical" doesn't mean "negative." It implies analysis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush

The point that seems perpetually lost on Terrapin and probably Mucha is it's not Crew Slut. It's every song that features women in any capacity. It's in the bovine perspiration of Dynah Moe-Humm and in the tiny mustaches of the Catholic Girls. Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one.

Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know.

If you're locked into your position or simply don't agree, that's fine. We don't have to agree.

I don't usually agree to disagree though. I want you to not be wrong, to not have unsupportable misconceptions, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubber soul

Pretentious and disliked aren't necessarily the same thing. I happen to think Morrissey is pretentious too and yet I love the Smiths (and even some of Morrissey's solo material). Zappa, I'm not so sure. I know he flipped out the cast of SNL when he made his one and only appearance there and he talked in parables at the PMRC hearings. The music still stands out as occasionally brilliant though.

It's dumb as a criticism because of how the term is conventionally defined: "attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

I view [ideas] as sites of contestation,

??

jadis · 08-28-2021, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

??

A conceptual "site" where stuff be contested?

I thought that it's one of my many calques from French and while it is that too, a Google search in English turns up "about 136,000 results" and in quite a few of those, "sites" refers not to physical but conceptual spaces.

"The sessions will feature a multi-faceted reflection on the ways in which the liberal arts become sites of contestation and sources of consolation in times of historical crisis." - you get the idea.

The larger framework is of course Nietzsche as read by Deleuze and Foucault.

Terrapin_Station · 08-28-2021, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

A conceptual "site" where stuff be contested?

I thought that it's one of my many calques from French and while it is that too, a Google search in English turns up "about 136,000 results" and in quite a few of those, "sites" refers not to physical but conceptual spaces.

"The sessions will feature a multi-faceted reflection on the ways in which the liberal arts become sites of contestation and sources of consolation in times of historical crisis." - you get the idea.

The larger framework is of course Nietzsche as read by Deleuze and Foucault.

I'm not at all a fan of continentalism, and I'm a physicalist, so . . . lol

Concepts are physical things in particular brains in my view.

Guybrush · 08-28-2021, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't usually agree to disagree though. I want you to not be wrong, to not have unsupportable misconceptions, etc.

You can probably imagine that as a Zappa fan, I've had this discussion before. Both with other people and in my own brain for a long time. I've been on your side of the discussion for years and years.

Learning more about misogyny and becoming more aware of it is an important part of what's brought me to my current position on the issue. I believe I see something that you're probably blind to and discussing here isn't likely to change that.

Maybe you should ask your wife about it.

08-28-2021, 07:44 AM	#361 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	It's the level of seriousness that the uncritical fanboy stance deserves. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

08-28-2021, 09:42 AM	#365 (permalink)
adidasss Slavic gay sauce Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 7,993	He collects and sells cards. :/ __________________ “Think of what a paradise this world would be if men were kind and wise.” - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle. Last.fm

08-28-2021, 09:43 AM	#366 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	The point that seems perpetually lost on Terrapin and probably Mucha is it's not Crew Slut. It's every song that features women in any capacity. It's in the bovine perspiration of Dynah Moe-Humm and in the tiny mustaches of the Catholic Girls. Frank seems to want them sexually (only), but at the same time can't help shaming them in some derogatory way. It's not a deal-breaker for me, but the big picture is certainly a misogynist one. Who would think a rock star from the 60s with song titles like Easy Meat and Crew Slut would be misogynist? Controversial, I know. If you're locked into your position or simply don't agree, that's fine. We don't have to agree. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 08-28-2021 at 10:17 AM.