Frank Zappa Appreciation Thread

[jadis]

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I am not calling everyone "pretentious" in fact I'm doing the opposite. I am trying to divert that accusation being levied against someone who thinks independently both on a philosophical and on a creative level.

I think your stance is admirable. I was referring to something else.

You said Elph’s accusing Zappa of being “pretentious” made no sense in light of Zappa deeming X, Y and Z “pretentious”. I didn’t see any contradiction there because you can rail against pretentiousness all you want and still fit many people’s definitions of pretentiousness. Who’s to say whose definition is the more legitimate etc.

I guess your definition of "pretentious" is someone who says "Wowie Zowie."

Not at all, I like WZ, a perfectly crafted little ditty. In general, I’m a fan of Dadaist language games. My personal definition of pretentiousness is probably the former singer of the smiths but then I am generally not in a brilliant position to level the accusation at anyone.

[Neapolitan]

Originally Posted by jadis

I think your stance is admirable. I was referring to something else.

You said Elph’s accusing Zappa of being “pretentious” made no sense in light of Zappa deeming X, Y and Z “pretentious”.

That is not what I said. I didn't say Frank just deemed them "pretentious." Zappa had a decent amount of self-awareness and often express reasonable and legitimate critism against those things mentioned. Frank Zappa didn't "deem" those things "pretentious" willy nilly and in the deeming of those thing "pretentious" thus made them so.

Originally Posted by jadis

I didn’t see any contradiction there because you can rail against pretentiousness all you want and still fit many people’s definitions of pretentiousness. Who’s to say whose definition is the more legitimate etc. ...

Then you reduce the meaning of "pretentiousness" to something not being liked. Frank Zappa doesn't like "X, Y, and Z" and ironically there are people who don't like Frank Zappa. Who's to say who is more disliked? ... err "pretentious?"

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by elphenor

case and point that Zappa is exclusively for ****ing NERDS

Bruh, everyone on MB is basically a goddamn nerd.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by elphenor

case and point that Zappa is exclusively for ****ing NERDS

You play League of Legends.

[Guybrush]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

If you feel like you do need a term, I think bob's suggestion "groupie" covers it in a way which is both explanatory and less derogatory.

Edit:

Originally Posted by bob_32_116

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

I hope you do check him out. Musically, he's just about the most interesting character from US rock history with a ton of great material. Around 1980, he goes in for shock value. He was a bit of a misanthrope and for a while, I do think he enjoyed notoriety and wanted to give the middle finger to the people who wanted to censor him. He grew out of it and spent his last years focusing more on classical, jazz and modern experimental music. You can easily avoid his "gross" period by avoiding the records made around 1980, though aside from some tasteless jokes, they're still clever, funny and musically great (especially Joe's Garage for me).

My favourite album is The Mothers' One Size Fits All which, to most people, should be unproblematic. He also made gorgeous stuff like this:

[Mucha na Dziko]

Originally Posted by Guybrush

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

Because that was the idea for the song. Not every little thing in culture and art has to be respectful towards others and political correct.
It wouldn't be the same song if you would be "describing her joy off having sex with the band", because it's from the perspective of a band that wants to get laid in any town possible.

Frank Zappa has created for all of his songwriting this character of a seditious, cynical joker. That was his idea, and it doesn't seem to actually hurt anyone. He's a quite different person when interviewed – full of reserve, reason and sense. Also he is certainly the last person to actually think that a girl having sex with band members is a "slut" or anything, so why bother?

Art is something else than, let's say political speeches, etc. You're allowed to do or say anything that is in line with your artistic idea or persona.

Cut artists a break, it's not like making a song about a "crew slut" is being a nazi.

[Also, it's a damn good song musically speaking – but that's what it's like with Zappa: amazing music and dumb/disgusting/funny lyrics]

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by bob_32_116

"Groupie"?

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

I'm not sure what you're asking there. Are you not familiar with what a groupie is?

Zappa has a song called "Crew Slut" that's about groupies (or perhaps a particular groupie that he had in mind) who were (was) known for hooking up with the crew. (Groupies often do this as an eventual "in" to the band, but some also just like crew guys.)

Originally Posted by Guybrush

I'd probably just give her a name or call her girl or woman and somehow, without judgment, describe her joy of having sex with members of the band. Why would I have to invoke a derogatory term at all?

Seeing "slut" as necessarily negatively judgmental is part of the problem. That's not actually how meaning works in general (that any word has any necessary connotation).

Originally Posted by Mucha na Dziko

It wouldn't be the same song if you would be "describing her joy off having sex with the band", because it's from the perspective of a band that wants to get laid in any town possible.

Frank Zappa has created for all of his songwriting this character of a seditious, cynical joker. That was his idea, and it doesn't seem to actually hurt anyone. He's a quite different person when interviewed – full of reserve, reason and sense. Also he is certainly the last person to actually think that a girl having sex with band members is a "slut" or anything, so why bother?

Well, and I don't think "slut" is meant as something with a negative connotation. Zappa certainly doesn't think that it's something negative for a woman to like having sex with crew members (and this song is about the crew, not the band).

We're also overlooking the way that "crew slut" fits the tune musically--the rhythm of the phrase, the way the phonemes work in the musical phrase, etc. All of that stuff is very important. You'd have to write at least slightly different music if you're changing the lyrics.

Originally Posted by elphenor

rap metal sounds like it could be your favorite genre

Rap metal/rap rock/groove metal/funk metal/nu metal, which I lump all together, is one of my favorite subgenres (of a list of about 50 favorite genres/subgenres)

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I am not calling everyone "pretentious" in fact I'm doing the opposite. I am trying to divert that accusation being levied against someone who thinks independently both on a philosophical and on a creative level.

"Pretentious" is one of the dumber terms of criticism anyway.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Terrapin_Station

I don't think

The crux of these overly defensive points.

[Terrapin_Station]

Originally Posted by Frownland

The crux of these overly defensive points.

A Pee-wee Herman caliber response. Nice.

[rubber soul]

Pretentious and disliked aren't necessarily the same thing. I happen to think Morrissey is pretentious too and yet I love the Smiths (and even some of Morrissey's solo material). Zappa, I'm not so sure. I know he flipped out the cast of SNL when he made his one and only appearance there and he talked in parables at the PMRC hearings. The music still stands out as occasionally brilliant though.