Extraordinarily gifted and genius while pretentious with ideas that aren't worth a **** ? That combination doesn't seem to cohere.


I don't see how you're not reading "contempt and condescension" into it though.

Re "Broken Hearts" I don't think you're even understanding that song or the lyrics at all. That whole last section simply grows in a word-play way out of "Well, ladies you can be an @$$hole too; You might pretend you ain't got one on the bottom of you, But don't fool yerself girl," where as was usually par for the course, the "ram it up your poop shoot" was probably an inside joke about something someone in the band or on the crew said. That was the source of a lot of Zappa's lyrics.

He's the wurst.

I've been an FZ apologist too, still am sometimes. And sure, there could be inside joke reasons that could make a lyric look worse than what is actually meant, but having to resort to convoluted explanations to explain away gross lyrics.. Even that in itself shows that there are some problems.

In Bobby Brown, we have lines like: "I'll let her do all the work and maybe later I'll rape her". In fembot in a Wet T-shirt, we get lines like "I really need the fifty bucks you know. I gotta get home!" - "Yeah, I know, your father is waiting for you in the tool shed". You don't see condescension or contempt here? Of course, any FZ apologist will point out that Frank uses characters here and Bobby Brown is meant to be awful (rapist homosexual sadomasichist), but that's not always the case.

Take a verse out of Jewish princess where he doesn't hide behind any character:

I need a hairy little Jewish Princess (la-la-la)
With a brand new nose, who knows where it goes (wee-ohh)
I want a steamy little Jewish Princess (shh)
With over-worked gums, who squeaks when she cums
I don't want no troll
I just want a Yemenite hole

You mean this is not derogatory, shows contempt or condescension?

Or easy meat:

Saw her tiny titties
Through her see-through blouse
I just had to take the girl to my house
Easy meat

Slightly sillier example, but upon discovering that his girlfriend has gone missing (eaten by the devil) in the song "Titties n beer", Frank's reaction is this:

"where's those titties i like so well, 'n' my goddam beer!" Is what i started to yell

Clearly the important thing about his girl - and what concerns him - are the tittays.

I don't consider myself a prude. I don't have problems with portrayals of sexuality between men and women. I just think it would be better if they were respectful. In his songs, Frank uses terms like "crew slut" or "easy meat" which are in themselves derogatory and objectifying. This would be okay too if it happened on occasion, but the impression I have is that Frank is pretty much unable to tackle the theme of man-woman sexuality without somehow being disrespectful to women. He's disrespectful to everyone, so of course, but this particular side of him especially hasn't aged well (imo).

Or Leo Tolstoy

I don't want to get into increasingly longer posts each round, but just for example, take this:
So, let's imagine that you're going to write a song about a groupie who is notorious for hooking up with crew members. To make it "respectful," instead of writing it as "Crew Slut," you'd write is as?

DBSP Designated Band Sex Person

"Groupie"?

I never bothered to seriously investigate Frank Zappa, having heard maybe an hour's worth in total of cuts from various albums, and not particularly liking any of them. This thread has made me even less inclined to spend any more time on him.

If you can't think of a way then maybe you should question your position.

I am not calling everyone "pretentious" in fact I'm doing the opposite. I am trying to divert that accusation being levied against someone who thinks independently both on a philosophical and on a creative level.

I guess your definition of "pretentious" is someone who says "Wowie Zowie." Someone who warns you: don't eat the yellow snow. How dare he. If jadis wants to eat yellow snow who is the pretentious Frank Zappa to say otherwise. Wowie Zowie that is really pretentious.

I think your stance is admirable. I was referring to something else.

You said Elph’s accusing Zappa of being “pretentious” made no sense in light of Zappa deeming X, Y and Z “pretentious”. I didn’t see any contradiction there because you can rail against pretentiousness all you want and still fit many people’s definitions of pretentiousness. Who’s to say whose definition is the more legitimate etc.

Not at all, I like WZ, a perfectly crafted little ditty. In general, I’m a fan of Dadaist language games. My personal definition of pretentiousness is probably the former singer of the smiths but then I am generally not in a brilliant position to level the accusation at anyone.