I think what people aren't realizing is ever since the rise of pop radio, it's been one giant study by the record companies to see which kinds of songs pull in the most listeners. It's been decades and they've successfully honed in on the perfect formula. To people with discerning ears, it is clearly repetitive. Most people just want something to play while they are doing other things...they are not active listeners. So most people don't mind.

I think you can't deny the rise and fall of the album as well. I'm going to use the Beatles as the point in time when albums started to gain credibility as an art form. Pre-Beatles, most pop music was very formulaic. Post-Beatles, the album started to gain popularity and more craft had to go into the music to ensure people bought them. While a single that sounds like 1,000 other singles is fine, an album of the same 4/4 vcv starts to get repetitive. Now we are seeing the rise of the single again. Albums are all but a niche interest. Repetitive sounds are taking over again.

That's not to say I don't think there are some pop songs that will stand the test of time out there. As most people have pointed out, there was crap music in all decades. I'm simply talking about a general trend.

Hmm
 

Bottom line is that music today is so different because the industry is so different.

It's impossible to compare because artists have different priorities.

I will say that I think pop now is melodically better than the older pop.

:afro:

I kinda think of then as like if Brian Wilson made the beach boys folky during his post-Smile abortion depression. At least that's what they strike me as on helplessness blues.

There is good music under all the rocks from all the ages. you just have to find it. And lots of bad music also. But today fantastic production technology can mask the poor quality of many songs and performers.

Hmmm. Don't seem to have enough harmonies IMO. I think Brian would still have made use of the group's unparalleled harmonic capabilities.

FF just sounds to me more like a modern-day Leonard Cohen, or any other folk singer.

There's plenty of great pop music today, it's just not always in the top 40. However, since the internet makes finding awesome artists more accessible than ever before [and since home-recording is more accessible than ever before] I would argue that there is probably MORE great pop music out there than in say, the 60s or 70s. You just have to dig a little to find it - but please, it's pointless listening to say, One Direction and claiming that music has regressed. There has been **** music from every decade - what about stuff like the Osmonds or the Bay City Rollers?

Here are some fantastic modern pop songs:


Of Monsters and Men - Little Talks - YouTube


Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know (feat. Kimbra) - official video - YouTube


Shiny Toy Guns "Le Disko" - YouTube


Bastille - Laura Palmer - YouTube

I could go on, but you take my point.

Gotye was at #1 I think, but I see your point, and it's a valid one.

Really? I thought helplessness blues had a remarkable focus on harmonies, as well as densely layered instrumentation on at least some of the tracks. It may not be quite as complex or varied as Brian would have it, of course, but at least on that album (I don't know their earlier work as well) it puts a lot if emphasis on orchestration that I don't hear in a lot of folk or singer/songwriters, though to be perfectly honest those aren't exactly my best points of expertise.

Mmmm, kinda sorta maybe, but not really. Harmonies there are waaay below what Brian woulda and coulda done. It's actually a bit more like CSN harmonies circa late 70's-early 80's, on some songs.

Also, Brian wasn't a big fan of folk music, I can't imagine him doing something like that in the 60's.

Here ya go.

Jump ahead to the ~2 minute mark


This is CSN, 1977. FF sounds waaay more like this than anything the BB's did, or could have done.

Cheers :) Yes I know it did well in the charts, but I thought I should include a song that was extremely popular to forestall the 'but "pop" means "popular"' argument.

Fleet Floxes at 2 minutes sounds like America.

I don't think those examples are so fantastic - no offense. That one Goyte song is just plan annoying. I think the style singing Of Monsters and Men use is just plain horrible - I can't listen to it. It's just certain things in music get overdone till ad nauseam. That's not a "now versus then" thing.

What has happen to post-Whitney R&B, Blues, Bluegrass etc has quite often happen to indie folk, the singing sounds derivative and pretentious. It doesn't mean I don't like those genres, I'm just a very finicky listener. I would rather someone who others would not be considered to have a strong voice to sing in their own natural way than for them to try to sound like someone else, whether they are expected to because it's the new standard or told to sing that way have a hit.

Them too.

you noticed too, good ear.

Driveyourcar you're probably right, CSNY is the frame of reference I had when I thought of showing it to my parents or grandma. Maybe it just seems distinct from folk to me as I said before, but CSN/Y is a better comparison for the folk rock element.

Also America don't course because they were like CSNY's little brother.

Don't think so, one was the super group from various 60's Rock bands who turned hippy in time for Woodstock. Another were a legit band in their own right. I don't see that just because a band is formed later automatically makes them the little brother. If you follow that logic that CSNY "don't course because they" were the Everly Brothers' little hippy brother.

I think FF's music sounds more like CSN but their vocals and harmonies are a bit more like America. America is/was less folk-y than CSN.

America started with a folk-y harmonies and used mainly acoustic folk guitars with plenty of Jazzy chords. America started folk-y (plus other music styles) shifted direction and became more Rock than Folk. CSN added Neil Young to the mix. I thought they came from a very similar place and they both evolved - not judging one over the other.

CSN could be very Simon and Garfunkelish too - check out "Marrakesh Express." That begs the question does CSN "court" even though they formed after S&G? So America is the little brother of CSN who were little brother of Simon and Garfunkel who were the little brother of the Everly Brothers. If America "doesn't court" isn't saying that siding the opinion that things get worse or don't compare? Even though it's on a micro scale from say from '68 to '70, compared to the macro scale of 1960 to 1980 vs 1990 to 2013.

I don't think one is better over the other even if you factor in who is influenced by who came first doesn't rate a band. I have other criteria than that which is kinda hard to explain. In most cases there is enough personal elements in a band to give them their own individual credit. When you have different bands (even though they formed at different time) at some point they come together regardless of seniority to define an era like Folk Rock etc.

Personally, I infinitely prefer early Folk Rock of the 60's and 70s over the "Unplug" stuff MTV pooped out in the 90s.

I think the Gotye song has been massively over-played on radio and stuff, however, that's the case with any song that's an actual hit. Lyrically, I think it's intelligent and memorable.

I suppose it's subjective as to whether you enjoy a particular style of singing - personally I think that it goes well with the style of the music, just as singing in a bluesy fashion would go well with singing a blues song.

I see what you mean about Whitney though - there are far too many pop/ rn'b singers who over-egg stuff [I call it doing a Mariah]. Whilst it may be very technically impressive to hit 10 notes in 4 different octaves in one line, in terms of song structure, I think it's actually detrimental to a piece of music, as adding constant flourishes/ embellishment rather saps the expression from a song. Roughly, I think that a song should follow an arc a bit like a novel - set up scene with the start, gradually build to a climax about 3/4 the way through, then let the consumer back down gently. If you do absolutely everything of which you're capable throughout the entire thing, then where do you go? You've nothing to build up to, because you're already at the top of the mountain. And if you remain at the same altitude for the whole climb, that's not a climb at all... it's just a walk.

Ok, might have overextended my metaphor there slightly lol but you see what I mean.

Oops I meant count but I call them little brother because neil young couldn't even distinguish "horse with no name" from his own catalog, likely due to it sounding exactly like his or CSNY's music later down the line

Music has (or should) have nothing to do with politics.

But there is a link between music and education. Education has everything to do with the mind - and the mind has everything to do with music. Where does a piece of music come from if not from the mind of the songwriter/composer and the performer(s)?

And what will happen to a society's music if the schools of that society destroy the minds of the future songwriters/composers and performers?

I still have yet to hear from you. Were these songs written by uneducated idiots?

These too. Please tell me why these songs were written by poorly educated people. What is it, in these songs, which identify them as products of a watered-down education system?

Also, listen to this and tell me these are unsophisticated songwriters:
Grooveshark - Free Music Streaming, Online Music

Don't cop out galt, listen to these and tell me what's wrong with them.

Hello! Right now I am on vacation in Vietnam. I am visiting my vietnamese wife's relatives. I am using my brother-in-law's computer right now. This computer does not seem to have the abiltiy to play audio/video clips. Ordinary citizens in Vietnam do not have the most modern technology.

So I am sorry - I will not be able to listen to the music you are supplying before I get back to my home in Sweden and have time to pay a visit to Music Banter. Hopefully I will be able to write you a reply during the weekend after the day I return to Sweden - i.e. during the weekend following Friday the 14th of February.

Alright, I await your reviews then.

And read my posts early in this thread. I was as skeptical as you about any decent new music out there until Surrel showed me a couple of Animal Collective videos. Then I started listening to some other stuff and found some pretty good bands, my "big three" of which I've been posting here.

If you look at all the bands that participated in the pop music of the 60s and mid 70s they dwarf pretty much everything that is out there today!

That's because people have had 40/50 years plus to familiarise themselves with those songs.
I could just as easy say the same thing about the songs I grew up with in the late 80s / 90s. Someone a lot younger than me will say the exact same thing about the songs they've grown up with in the past 10/15 years.

I already think 4 or 5 years ago was better than now

I personally don't think so. It only took me a couple of days to familiarise myself with a new Beatles, or Rolling Stone's song. It did not take 40 years. I can't actually imagine anyone today remembering 90% of what is out there these days even a year after it's come out. :(
or the record there was some interesting music being made in the 80s and 90s still.

I meant they've taken 40/50 years to sink into modern culture, not you personally.

Besides I can remember during the 80s when the 70s was regarded as the decade that taste forgot and that it was a huge disappointment after the 60s.

Then the 70s became fashionable again and it was the 80s that was regarded as a crap decade. Then the 80s became fashionable.

Now the people that grew up in the 90s are reaching the age where they're the ones in charge of radio & TV so I'm hearing a lot more 90s stuff now.

You just identify with the generation you grew up in, it's not supposed to appeal to the generation before it. Many people who grew up in the generation before you in the 40s & 50s just saw the music you're gushing over as a noise. What's the difference between them saying that about what you like and you saying it about what people like today.

When was the last time you listened to a Dubstep or Grime album with an open mind?

I agree, and that's the part a lot of music enthusiasts leave out of the equation when versing an opinion concerning a particular era/decade of Music (the eras they have personally experienced first hand). You have to transcend yourself to that particular era in order to give a more accurate description to what was actually going on concerning music during a particular time/era in question. So it does have its advantages as well. I can go back as far as the late 60's and early 70s myself, I have to mainly surf the web and visit music forms like this one in order to learn anything before then. Documentaries on TV have helped a lot like, Behind The Music for example. Everybody! and his brother is a 'Music Critic' these days, in the modern times of the internet and both Music combined.

UK Singles Chart This Week In 1966

1. THESE BOOTS ARE MADE FOR WALKIN' - NANCY SINATRA
(Known now - Classic)

2 A GROOVY KIND OF LOVE - MINDBENDERS
(Probably more known for Phil Collins covering it)

3. BARBARA ANN - BEACH BOYS
(Known now - Classic)

4. BACKSTAGE - GENE PITNEY
(60s version of a Simon Cowell style act)

5. SPANISH FLEA - HERB ALPERT AND THE TIJUANA BRASS
(More known for being on TV & in movies)

6. SHA LA LA LA LEE - SMALL FACES
(Known today - Classic)

7. I CAN'T LET GO - HOLLIES
(not really one of their known songs, not a group who's popularity has lasted either)

8 19TH NERVOUS BREAKDOWN - ROLLING STONES
(Known now - not really a classic though)

9 MY LOVE - PETULA CLARK
(Not one of her more well known songs)

10 THE SUN AIN'T GONNA SHINE ANYMORE - WALKER BROTHERS
(Known now but mainly for Scott Walkers solo stuff - Classic)

11 TOMORROW - SANDIE SHAW
(Not one of her more well known songs)

12 INSIDE - LOOKING OUT - ANIMALS
(Not one of their more well known songs)

13 YOU WERE ON MY MIND - CRISPIAN ST. PETERS
(Who?)

14 LIGHTNING STRIKES - LOU CHRISTIE
(Who?)

15 THIS GOLDEN RING - FORTUNES
(Who?)

16 MAKE THE WORLD GO AWAY - EDDY ARNOLD
(Who?)

17 SHAPES OF THINGS - YARDBIRDS
(Remembered but hardly massively popular)

18 UPTIGHT (EVERYTHING'S ALRIGHT) - STEVIE WONDER
(Remembered - Classic)

19 WHAT NOW MY LOVE - SONNY AND CHER
(Not one of their more well known songs)

20 DEDICATED FOLLOWER OF FASHION - KINKS
(Remembered - Classic)

21 SECOND HAND ROSE - BARBRA STREISAND
(Ahahahaha)

22 BLUE RIVER - ELVIS PRESLEY
(Re-release)

23 MIRROR, MIRROR - PINKERTON'S ASSORTED COLOURS
(Who?)

24 LOVE'S JUST A BROKEN HEART - CILLA BLACK
(60s version of a Simon Cowell style act)

25 GIRL - ST. LOUIS UNION
(Who?)

26 YOU DON'T LOVE ME - GARY WALKER
(Who?)

27 GET OUT OF MY LIFE, WOMAN - LEE DORSEY
(Heard of him, never the song)

28 LITTLE BY LITTLE - DUSTY SPRINGFIELD
(Not one of her classics but faily well known)

29 WOMAN - PETER AND GORDON
(Who?)

30 YOU'VE COME BACK - P J PROBY
(60s version of a Simon Cowell style act)

I think I make that 6 classic songs and 3 or 4 good ones out of a list of 30, and remember the charts were a lot slower then so most of this would still probably be there in a months time.

So much for 'The good ole days'

And just for comparison here's this week in 1996....

1 SPACEMAN - BABYLON ZOO
(Novelty song)

2 ANYTHING - 3T
(Who?)

3 SLIGHT RETURN - BLUETONES
(Still hear it occasionally - OK song)

4 LIFTED - LIGHTHOUSE FAMILY
(Has become a staple of radio stations across the country, have to say it's a classic)

5 I JUST WANT TO MAKE LOVE TO YOU - ETTA JAMES
(Re-release for diet coke ad)

6 ONE OF US - JOAN OSBORNE
(Has become a staple of radio stations across the country, have to say it's a classic)

7 DO U STILL - EAST 17
(Remember the band not the song)

8 I WANNA BE A HIPPY - TECHNOHEAD
(Novelty club song)

9 ONE BY ONE - CHER
(Know her not the song)

10 JESUS TO A CHILD - GEORGE MICHAEL
(Has become a staple of radio stations across the country, have to say it's a classic)

11 NO FRONTS (REMIX) - DOG EAT DOG
(Who?)

12 CHANGE YOUR MIND - UPSIDE DOWN
(Who?)

13 NOT A DRY EYE IN THE HOUSE - MEAT LOAF
(Know him not the song)

14 LOVING YOU MORE (REMIX) - BT FEAT. VINCENT COVELLO
(Who?)

15 GANGSTA'S PARADISE - COOLIO FEAT. L.V.
(Classic)

16 1979 - SMASHING PUMPKINS
(This song gets mentioned more than any other of their songs - classic)

17 BEAUTIFUL LIFE - ACE OF BASE
(Still hugely popular with radio stations not this song though)

18 WHOLE LOTTA LOVE - GOLDBUG
(Novelty club song)

19 EARTH SONG - MICHAEL JACKSON
(Hate it, but classic)

20 MISSING - EVERYTHING BUT THE GIRL
(One of the biggest club hits of the 90s)

21 STREET SPIRIT (FADE OUT) - RADIOHEAD
(Classic)

22 WONDERWALL - OASIS
(Classic)

23 FATHER AND SON - BOYZONE
(Vomit)

24 EVERYTIME YOU TOUCH ME - QFX
(Who?)

25 THE NAUGHTY NORTH & THE SEXY SOUTH - E-MOTION
(Who?)

26 WEAK - SKUNK ANANSIE
(Popular then but not really remembered)

27 AND I'M TELLING YOU I'M NOT GOING (REMIX) - DONNA GILES
(Who?)

28 YOUR LOVE - INNER CITY
(Dance act past their prime)

29 SO PURE - BABY D
(Who?)

30 SITTIN' UP IN MY ROOM - BRANDY
(Heard of her don't know anything about her but it says this was one of her biggest songs and she's still around now so I guess I have to call it a classic)


I make that 10 classic songs and 1 good one that still gets a played a fair amount. I've tried to keep personal taste away from this, the songs I'm calling classics is because I still hear them played frequently rather than because of what I think of them.

Make of that what you will.

Just to mention what was popular in your region of the world was not necessarily popular here in the US and other places as well. The states are broken down in regions as well, what might be popular on the west coast is not necessarily popular here in the Northeast.

I'm talking about what songs from what era are remembered today. I can only do that about the area I'm familiar with which is the UK mainstream.

Doesn't make it any less valid though. I don't see anybody saying that this 'decline in good music' is happening on a national level to specific countries.

Maybe you should look into one specific region in the 60s and then the same place again at a later date & see how many songs you recognise as still being culturally relevant.

3T are Tito Jackson's three son's and they formed a R&B group in the 90's. They were pretty popular in the UK around that time.

Understood, I was just adding to the fact of versatility.

Are you asking for specific songs from each era?

I'm taking a chart at random & seeing which songs I still hear getting regular airplay on radio / tv / film or being talked about still in the media today.