The Beatles vs The Beach Boys

Taxman · 01-08-2014, 12:58 PM

Oh really, that's true. The Smile I'm judging is a kind of mix of them. But you can't really treat Brian Wilson version as "The definite version of Smile" cos it would be unfair. After all has been said and done, it is one of the greatest disasters in the music history that Smile was not released as it was planned in the sixties.

**Janszoon** · 01-08-2014, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxman

Oh really, that's true. The Smile I'm judging is a kind of mix of them. But you can't really treat Brian Wilson version as "The definite version of Smile" cos it would be unfair. After all has been said and done, it is one of the greatest disasters in the music history that Smile was not released as it was planned in the sixties.

I agree you can't treat the Brian Wilson version as definitive, but you can definitely treat it as a legit album that can be judged in album terms.

Taxman · 01-08-2014, 01:47 PM

That's true and that is why it's great that both versions have been released. I should probably listen to that 2004 version again, it has been a long time since I did and I have been concentrating on the Beach Boys version.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 01-08-2014, 02:35 PM

I think it might be fair to say Smile (had it been put out in something kinda resembling its 2011 form) would have been more complex than anything the Beatles put out. I mean, most songs on Smile were these "pocket symphony" type things put together in different segments. The only Beatles song around the same era which did that was Day In The Life (I don't consider the Abbey Road medley to be the same thing).

On the other hand, while the meta-structure of most of the songs on Smile were fairly complex, the (what I'll call) "micro-structure" of all the songs was actually quite simple, consisting mostly of just 3-chord tunes (check out the Wiki article on it). On the other hand, Beatles songs tended to be filled with more chords than your usual pop song, as this essay here explains.

Granted, I have no doubt Brian Wilson was more than capable of writing songs with complex chord patterns (he had already done some of that) and I've no doubt either Lennon or McCartney could have written their own "pocket symphonies" had they desired to (McCartney in particular did some of that in the 70's - think Band On The Run). So when we're comparing the artistry of the two bands, they're kinda similar, but different. And in the aggregate probably about the same.

As for weak spots, that's pretty subjective. Personally I think Run For Your Life is a great (if mean) song, though I suppose I can see why others think it might be filler.

Taxman · 01-08-2014, 02:47 PM

Yeah, but ain't Pet Sounds songs have pretty complex chord progressions? I'm not an expert but figuring out the chords of God Only Knows was pretty hard.

Edit. Run For Your Life is musically good, but those lyrics spoil it.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 01-08-2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taxman

Yeah, but ain't Pet Sounds songs have pretty complex chord progressions? I'm not an expert but figuring out the chords of God Only Knows was pretty hard.

Yes, that's true. I was speaking of Smile specifically. Brian deliberately made the chords simple, but masked it with complex arrangements.

Sort-of related, I was just listening to both You Still Believe in Me and Here, There and Everywhere and just realized the latter is practically a ripoff of the former. I know McCartney was imitating the BB's with that song, but now that I listen to them back-to-back it's almost a little *too* obvious.

And for reference:

Chords for You Still Believe in Me:
You Still Believe In Me Chords by Beach Boys @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com

Chords for Here, There and Everywhere:
Here There Everywhere Chords by Beatles @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com

EDIT: The major difference between the two songs is that Wilson writes the melody around descending scales while McCartney used ascending scales. Otherwise they're pretty similar.

Taxman · 01-08-2014, 03:01 PM

Yep, they are kinda samey-sounding songs. But both are masterpieces so a little bit stealing doesn't actually bother me. But yep, Here There and Everywhere was pretty much influenced by Pet Sounds, no question about that.

DriveYourCarDownToTheSea · 01-08-2014, 04:44 PM

Really nerdy stuff:
Words and chords. The semantic shifts of the Beatles' chords

Taxman · 01-09-2014, 12:52 AM

^ an interesting article -though I did not understood it all- and it was partly made in Finland

Moss · 01-16-2014, 02:13 PM

Speaking of Beatles, I just picked up this shirt:

01-08-2014, 12:58 PM	#781 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	Oh really, that's true. The Smile I'm judging is a kind of mix of them. But you can't really treat Brian Wilson version as "The definite version of Smile" cos it would be unfair. After all has been said and done, it is one of the greatest disasters in the music history that Smile was not released as it was planned in the sixties. __________________ ...

01-08-2014, 01:47 PM	#783 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	That's true and that is why it's great that both versions have been released. I should probably listen to that 2004 version again, it has been a long time since I did and I have been concentrating on the Beach Boys version. __________________ ...

01-08-2014, 02:35 PM	#784 (permalink)
DriveYourCarDownToTheSea AllTheWhileYouChargeAFee Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,172	I think it might be fair to say Smile (had it been put out in something kinda resembling its 2011 form) would have been more complex than anything the Beatles put out. I mean, most songs on Smile were these "pocket symphony" type things put together in different segments. The only Beatles song around the same era which did that was Day In The Life (I don't consider the Abbey Road medley to be the same thing). On the other hand, while the meta-structure of most of the songs on Smile were fairly complex, the (what I'll call) "micro-structure" of all the songs was actually quite simple, consisting mostly of just 3-chord tunes (check out the Wiki article on it). On the other hand, Beatles songs tended to be filled with more chords than your usual pop song, as this essay here explains. Granted, I have no doubt Brian Wilson was more than capable of writing songs with complex chord patterns (he had already done some of that) and I've no doubt either Lennon or McCartney could have written their own "pocket symphonies" had they desired to (McCartney in particular did some of that in the 70's - think Band On The Run). So when we're comparing the artistry of the two bands, they're kinda similar, but different. And in the aggregate probably about the same. As for weak spots, that's pretty subjective. Personally I think Run For Your Life is a great (if mean) song, though I suppose I can see why others think it might be filler. __________________ Stop and find a pretty shell for her Beach Boys vs Beatles comparisons begin here

01-08-2014, 02:47 PM	#785 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	Yeah, but ain't Pet Sounds songs have pretty complex chord progressions? I'm not an expert but figuring out the chords of God Only Knows was pretty hard. Edit. Run For Your Life is musically good, but those lyrics spoil it. __________________ ...

01-08-2014, 03:01 PM	#787 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	Yep, they are kinda samey-sounding songs. But both are masterpieces so a little bit stealing doesn't actually bother me. But yep, Here There and Everywhere was pretty much influenced by Pet Sounds, no question about that. __________________ ...

01-08-2014, 04:44 PM	#788 (permalink)
DriveYourCarDownToTheSea AllTheWhileYouChargeAFee Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,172	Really nerdy stuff: Words and chords. The semantic shifts of the Beatles' chords __________________ Stop and find a pretty shell for her Beach Boys vs Beatles comparisons begin here

01-09-2014, 12:52 AM	#789 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	^ an interesting article -though I did not understood it all- and it was partly made in Finland __________________ ... Last edited by Taxman; 01-09-2014 at 01:09 AM.

01-16-2014, 02:13 PM	#790 (permalink)
Moss Scuttle Buttin' Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Boulder Colorado Posts: 972	Speaking of Beatles, I just picked up this shirt: