The Beatles vs The Beach Boys

Surell · 01-21-2012, 07:44 PM

Pretentious how? If Van **** Park's lyrics are pretentious, i can't imagine what you would call John Lennon's songs.

Howard the Duck · 01-22-2012, 03:09 AM

only a few Lennon songs have pretentious lyrics, and even then you can sense he's having good fun

but otherwise, stuff like "you're all fucking peasants, as far as they can see" hit really close to the bone

VEGANGELICA · 01-24-2012, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surell

This is my third time trying to get this in, but i'm prevailing this time.

Conceptual Depth: ...So the music represented his desires to be young and pure, to love everyone, and to find victory; after all, there's a lot of 50's-early 60's influence in his songwriting (motown, R&B, gospel, some country and jazz, etc.). The classical complexity and lyrical themes display his turmoil in meeting these desires.

BTW: According to Wikipedia, the album is based mostly on Acid and Zen philosophy, along with a zen riddle foundation called "koan" which is supposed to "free one from preconceptions."

Lyrical Originality: ... Aside from this, many of the songs deal with varied subject matter, or sometimes a more abstract kind; told through themes, harmonies, or word repetition. I mean, there's songs about eating your vegetables and the joy it can bring a lad ("Vega-tables") or "Heroes and Villains," a constantly shifting ballad about a lover he lost and how he lives amongst chaos- this is more face value evaluation. There's also "Child is Father of the Man," which merely repeats those words in an intriguing melody. This sounds boring in text, i'm sure, but it's one of the best tracks on SMiLE.

Musical Techniques: ...The Beach Boys began practically with a classical template for writing and composing: focusing on shifts, harmonies that compliment in contradiction rather than uniformity (a theme of the music), and incorporating pop elements for the music's tone and instrumentation. From there you see what genres you'd like to blend into the composition: There's country ("Cabin Essence"), western saloon playing ("Heroes and Villains") gospel in the harmonies, R&B and Motown in the lyricism and some instrumentation, a little folk in some lyrics and playing (though a little lush), jazz in instrumentation, and, of course, the rock and pop undertones.

That's my thesis.

I'd use Heroes and Villains, but i'm scared it'll break the romance rule, so here's my contribution:

Child is Father of the Man. If you look up the Brian Wilson version, he has more lyrics, about a boy making his way in the world and whatnot.

The vocal harmonies are complex enough, jumping out at you and then soothing immediately after. There's a couple of shifts as well, a mark of Classical level writing, or at least jazz. The theme of the song is evocative/thought provoking, and it does it without even having to use more than six words. As i said, the theme is further explored on Wilson's own version, which sounds somewhat different as well, but i chose this one.

Hmm...interesting thesis, Surell.

I concede, based on your arguments and the Wikipedia article, that I have not been giving The Beach Boys enough credit for the conceptual depth behind their songs.

Note, though, that the Wikipedia article on the Smile album says Writer Bill Tobelman, who first "argued that it was heavily influenced by Wilson's interest in Zen philosophy — notably the Zen technique of using absurd humor and paradoxical riddles (the koan) to liberate the mind from preconceptions — and that Smile as a whole can be interpreted as an extended Zen koan," later "modified his theory upon discovering the construction of the Smile riddle was based upon Arthur Koestler's book, The Act of Creation." So, unfortunately, the album does *not* have a zoan riddle, as you claimed. (It would have been cool if it had.)

I'm most convinced of the deeper conceptual complexity behind The Beach Boys' music after reading this about Smile: "Wilson and Parks intended Smile to be explicitly American in style and subject, a direct reaction to the British dominance of popular music at the time. It was supposedly conceived as a musical journey across America from east to west, beginning at Plymouth Rock and ending in Hawaii, as well as traversing some of the great themes of modern American history and culture, including the impact of white settlement on native Americans, the influence of the Spanish, the Wild West, and the opening up of the country by railroad and highway."

I don't think they produced music that reflects the depth of thought behind it, but there was more complexity involved in the conception of the music than I realized.

Lyrical originality -- I'm still not convinced The Beach Boys' music had much. Repetition of a simple phrase doesn't seem terribly original to me. Most of the songs by The Beach Boys use trite phrases or, when attempting to be humorous, simply succeed in sounding goofy to me.

Musical Techniques -- I'm most convinced by your argument here, but I'd say that The Beach Boys' use of new recording techniques (8 track tapes) at the time was what perhaps makes their music outstanding, since it allowed them to create music that wouldn't be possible live. Also, I'm impressed by Brian Wilson's tenacious, exacting work recording tiny sections of songs and splicing them together, devoting many hours to do that.

I don't love the sound of any of the resulting songs on the Smile album except for that of "Good Vibrations" because I feel the production of the music (the wandering and disjointed sound) becomes too much of the focus compared to the meaning behind the music. However, I like your argument that they incorporated music from many genres.

Yes, "Heroes and Villains" would have broken the dreaded "no romantic songs" rule, so it's a good thing you didn't offer it up to counter "Eleanor Rigby."

I concede that "Child is Father of the Man" has musical shifts and jazzy elements, with a muted trumpet being my favorite. So although I do not like the resulting chopped-up sound lacking a distinct focal highpoint, your argument that they were using complex musical techniques holds.

My conclusion:

The Beatles - 1 point (for "Eleanor Rigby")
The Beach Boys - 1 point (for "Child is The Father of the Man")

Howard the Duck · 01-24-2012, 06:24 AM

^^dear God, how can you not love Smile?

The recently released Smile Sessions is probably the Beach Boys' best work.

VEGANGELICA · 01-24-2012, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

^^dear God, how can you not love Smile?

The recently released Smile Sessions is probably the Beach Boys' best work.

My son, I find that The Beach Boys' Smile album has the scattered, disjointed sound and muted, emotional wanderings of jazz and progressive rock, neither of which I like.

-- God

P.S. Must listen to full Smile Sessions still, but I've been busy fighting evil in the U.S. Republican candidacy squabbles.

Howard the Duck · 01-24-2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

My son, I find that The Beach Boys' Smile album has the scattered, disjointed sound and muted, emotional wanderings of jazz and progressive rock, neither of which I like.

-- God

P.S. Must listen to full Smile Sessions still, but I've been busy fighting evil in the U.S. Republican candidacy squabbles.

well, if you want to, just listen from Our Prayer/Gee until Good Vibrations - the rest of it's kinda superfluous

ThePhanastasio · 02-18-2012, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babbychick

beatles for sure. the beach boys never had that level of melodic complexity.

Whoa, seriously? Brian Wilson is possibly the best pop composer of the past 100 years (in my humble opinion) and really went ahead and challenged melody to a goddamned fist fight.

And won.

Howard the Duck · 02-18-2012, 03:49 AM

yeah - the Beatles' songs are often complex from their effects, layers and textures

Lennon/McCartney doesn't have the musical compositional genius of Brian Wilson

Howard the Duck · 02-18-2012, 05:29 AM

yet he only can dream in 1966 that he can write something as beautiful as "God Only Knows"

Burning Down · 02-18-2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhanastasio

Whoa, seriously? Brian Wilson is possibly the best pop composer of the past 100 years (in my humble opinion) and really went ahead and challenged melody to a goddamned fist fight.

And won.

I strongly second this statement.