Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

You're missing out on my point, I think. I don't honestly think Kurt Cobain was that big of a sellout, neither do I hate him. I'm just using dramatic phrasing to illustrate a point. It stems from the fact that I see Ben Butler's criticisms being fairly rock biased, and would easily contend that Cobain is not that much better, or worse, than Gaga.

However, Cobain did put his name on a contract, and did collect millions even though he was trying to 'protest' the rockstar image. Therefore, I don't think he honestly meant it, he was just an unstable mind attempting to cope with becoming his own enemy by putting on a different mask. He even knew he was a hypocrite, that's what caused his suicide.

Your claims are interesting, but make little sense to me. I mean 'fire people he worked with'... what? Like... fire his band? That doesn't honestly make an iota of sense. Maybe Cobain was very easily manipulated, which some have argued about Gaga, however...

My basic point is that Gaga, and Cobain sort of empower the same limiting mindset. The same system which disallows listeners to truly come to grips with music. Their flaws are very similar. Gaga is much worse, mind you, but not worse enough to adore one, and revile the other.

Most importantly, They utilise the visual medium more effectively than the musical medium to acquire an audience.

In that same sense, I think Ben Butler, who I don't dislike, is falling for the same trap in which some Gaga fans do. As much as most Gaga fans might be into the 'fashion', I guarantee you a lot of the Cobain followers do it because of the 'image' that the media sold of him after his death than his actual music. I mean, they even sold him as the perfect godlike family man when it was obvious that he was a confused, semi-narcissistic heroin-binging maniac. He painted his house black, and wrote songs mocking rape/torture victims("Polly want a cracker?").

Nivana's music is more complex than Gagas, but honestly, not by that much. Furthermore, they're both fuelled by a concealing, one sided media which disallows superior musicians with inferior budget to create as powerful of imagery a fair playing field. Willfully, or no, they're both part of the same beast.

Which is what bothers me about a few of Butler's Gaga criticisms. They seem to be misguided in the sense that they more empower her, than they make a point. A few weeks back he was willing the homophobic nature of an entire country to attack her. Now, it's the fact her videos are 'too weird'. Which makes no sense seeing as he has an avatar of a band that has created even weirder, dare so more compelling imagery.

There's very good reasons to criticise Gaga. I think, like her insane Manson-esqe control of her fans, obsessions with stupid costumes over melodic content, her 0% originality, and such. No need to criticise her for the things that she wants you to think of her.

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Al Pacino = God

FaSho

Dude, we get it, you don't like Lady GaGa. Your eloquence doesn't make you any less of a troll. You consistently post in a thread about an artist you hate. You have some valid points, and you've made them. You can leave now.

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Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

As long as Gaga is being spoken about, she's a relevant piece of pop culture, and I'll put in my two cents. You can't just observe a phenomenon of this size, without having an opinion if it.

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Al Pacino = God

Sparky

Your pretty much saying the exact opposite of your last post, but thats cool,i do that all the time too.
He loved david bowie, freddie mercury, john lennon, all famous rockstars. Kurt cobain wasn't the typical punk your making him out to be. He killed himself because he was depressed, the romantic notion that stardom and "selling out" is what made him suicidal is putting it way too simply. He was depressed and suicidal before nirvana, and without any treatment it's no wonder why he stayed like that.

If you want I'll try to dig out this interview later, pretty much MTV threatened to fire people who worked for viacom that Kurt liked if they didn't perform, which is why kurt walked off stage immediatly and kris hit himself in the head with a guitar.

Can you please just rephrase this in some other way, I'm not too clear on what your point is.
Lady gaga can sell her pussy on tv, Kurt Cobain had sex appeal certainly, but not the same way as lady gaga. Lady Gaga does music video's with any other hot celebrity at the time, and are usually full of poorly-choreographed dance routines. Nirvana's video's aren't really gimmicky, and were few and far between, usually just for one single.

I don't think your factoring in the time period enough when comparing these two. Kurt didn't use mediums to promote himself like artists these days, he just wrote a really, really good pop song.

Lady gaga has staff tweeting, facebooking, website making, emailing, live streaming, recording every ****ing thing she does 24/7

The media portrayed that plenty, vanity fair ran a whole article and how unfit they were to be parents.

Okay..your point is that the media convinces people artists are all on an even playing field? Because everybody understands the difference between pop music and alternative or underground. Whether or not if nirvana and lady gaga's marketing was the same behind the scenes (which it isnt) it really has nothing to do with the music they are making. Nirvana took a really alternative sound and made it popular for masses, lady gaga is just another pop artist who has a good gimmick.

okay, we are all aware of the reasons to not like her at this point.

Ska Lagos Jew Sun Ra

Well, then, Kurt Cobain's 'staff' has probably been doing so from beyond the grave. I have people STILL hocking 'I love Cobain' shirts.

Regardless, I don't know how to disagree any further with his videos not being a major factor. Because they were THE factor that sold him. Not to say his music was bad, but it was overhyped.

Furthermore, Cobain could have still not answered to threats of firing people he 'liked'. He's not heroic for that.

Now, as for the Gaga fad. I agree, it's far. In fact, it's incredibly dangerous. Especially for the incredibly impressionable group who are so extreme that she is their lives. Factually, they're not out there, but they're probably out there in the thousands. It shelters them from an alternate world, and is extremely exploitive. Her manipulation of technological mediums sadly give her more power than one would think.

Gaga is an 80s dystopian cyberpunk writer's wet dream, and to think that one decade removed HBO's focus was on George Carlin standups, and now is on Gaga concerts speaks volumes of the cultural devolution of our society.

I feel that some may see it as a nuisance, but I honestly feel Gaga is an insult to basic human logic, and philosophy as a whole. However, the stigma of Nirvana, whether it's Kurt Cobain's fault or not, is almost as damaging.

I just wish sometimes people would step back a bit, and realise how out of hand this hero worship stuff actually gets, and exactly how disturbed I am that one person writes a handful of mediocre, dated, uninteresting pop songs, and explodes to such a huge size that he or she completely overshadows the artform. To the point she has an army of people who seemingly mold their entire life around everything she says, as if she's the second coming(and oh... as if she's not proliferating 'hints' at this possibility).

My obsession is a cry to logic, if anything. I don't want people to feel as if I'm bullying, trolling, or just being an ignorant ass. I think there's a very deep philosophical dilemma that Gaga brings to our culture, and it's only fair that it's brought to the table from an uncensored perspective.

That's all.

edit:


lol, ironically you posted this while I was ranting about it, and used the phrase 'cyberpunk writer's wet dream'.

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Al Pacino = God

Sparky

Because no other dead musician has t-shirts, maybe you should go to walmart real quick.
They were a major factor, but not as predominant a factor as they are to lady gaga.
Exactly, it makes him a normal ass dude which i like.






Dude, are you ****ing new to entertainment or something?

It's not like this is anything new, and citing HBO as an example of the difference older and newer society is ****ing retarded. It seems like you are just as impressionable as these teenage girls by television.

Like you said its a fad, and these girls will be sick of her relatively soon. It's really not that different from My Chemical Romance a couple years ago.

Me, personally, am more creeped out by this royal wedding bull****, like am i missing something, it's just a wedding? Then why the **** am i sposed to care?

You make it sound like Lady Gaga is singlehandidly brainwashing the youth, but look up ODD Future or insaine clown posse if you want real cult following.