Star Drek: Trollheart and The Batlord's Star Trek Voyager Slapfest!

Chula Vista · 10-21-2014, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinJJustin

Galaxy Quest is an awesome film from my childhood though.

Jeez, I was 39 when that arrived in theaters.

Trollheart · 10-23-2014, 05:23 PM

"Mr. Paris ... Engage!"

Okay then, let's get this party started! For anyone who needs a refresher, has never seen the series or just needs a basic idea of what we're talking about, here's a Wiki link. We'll do this with each episode. If anyone has any specific questions that aren't answered by reading the Wiki synopsis, ask us.

Season One, Episode One: "Caretaker"
Caretaker (Star Trek: Voyager) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A few snarky and really unimportant points before I make my case:

Cheesy lines: Betazoid (Scotty?) rebuffing the clumsy advances of Tom Paris: “Do you always fly at women at warp speed, Mister Paris?”
Paris: “Only when they're in visual range.” Oh puke, man! Puke and double puke! Luckily, they quickly discarded these chat-up lines.

Neelix. Oh dear god! Neelix! Why? WHY? (More on that later, you can be sure).

Okay, those little niggles aside, I have, to be fair, few problems with this first episode. Well, I'd be a right dick if I kicked it on its maiden voyage now wouldn't I? But there is one fundamental flaw with the storyline that I have, and it needs to be addressed now, as it affected my enjoyment of the series ever after. The Maquis are the sworn enemy of the Federation and Starfleet, believing themselves betrayed by the one and chased by the other. Voyager was hunting them when they all got pulled into the Delta Quadrant. Now, at the end of the first episode, Janeway decides that “this will be one crew: a Starfleet crew.” And nobody has any objections?

Everyone just accepts it. There are no dissenting voices, despite Torres's perceived hatred of the Federation and not to mention that these are all technically outlaws. But to an extent that's ok: everyone has to live together and they're the only ones of their species --- so far as they know --- in this quadrant. But the seeds could and should have been sown for a real power struggle, as factions within the crew still loyal to the ideals of the Maquis sought to disrupt the missions, perhaps not quite sabotage the ship but certainly do all they could to make life harder for Janeway and Starfleet. After all, at this moment were they to get home all the Maquis would likely be imprisoned. They don't have a lot to look forward to.

It could have given rise to some great stories, some fine plots: a real Fifth Column within the Voyager crew. But it never happened. There was no uprising, no “terror cell”, no clandestine meetings in which the Maquis plotted the overthrow of Janeway and the mutiny on the Voyager. Just never happened. Everyone fell into line. Is that believable? All the hatred, all the injustice, all the sense of betrayal these people had at the Federation and Starfleet just went away, just like that? All was forgiven? Not one person cradled a dark desire to strike back at the military arm of the people who had signed over their homes to the Cardassians? Everyone was okay with it?

This could have provided tension and uncertainty throughout at least the first season. Instead, it was brushed aside as if the Maquis had never existed. A process that would become the norm as this series progressed.

To quote a line from Frasier, “That's what I got a problem with!” and Frasier's snobby reply, “I think he means, that is a thing with which he has a problem!”

Then there's the unilateral decision to destroy the array. Yes, she is captain and generally her word is law. But this was an extreme situation. She was essentially condemning people --- some very young, like Kim --- to what could be a lifetime away from their own kind. She was effectively sentencing the entire crew of Voyager, and the Maquis, to a 75-year prison sentence. They would never see their friends or loved ones again. They would never serve on another starship, unless as a passenger after retirement. If they had children, they could be dead before the crew would even get back to see them. It's a horrible decision she was faced with, and I know it happened quickly and couldn't be debated, but she never even asked anyone. She just made the decision, for everyone.

What about the Maquis? They didn't sign up for this, and they certainly should have been angry at a Starfleet captain --- their enemy --- making such a pronouncement and condemning them to exile. I feel if Picard had been in this position things might have turned out differently. And was a race of aliens they were unaware even existed until a few days ago worth sacrificing the chance of ever seeing home again for?

Oh and I thought of one other thing since writing this: why did Janeway not look for a third option? She had two: destroy the array and be stranded there, or leave it and allow the genocide of the alien race to take place. But there could have been a third choice.

Surely, with all their inventive little Starfleet minds, they could have rigged something that would have detonated AFTER they had used the array to get back home, thereby accomplishing the twin tasks of protecting the Caretaker's legacy and also not forcing their crew to grow old in the Delta Quadant? But it wasn't even discussed. I know they were under attack, but aren't Starfleet personnel supposed to thrive under pressure? Even Tuvok, with his logical Vulcan mind, couldn't think of an alternative? He didn't question the captain's --- on the face of it --- crazy order? I know the needs of the many are supposed to outweigh the needs of the few, but come on...

Well, over to you, Bats!

The Batlord · 10-24-2014, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Cheesy lines: Betazoid (Scotty?) rebuffing the clumsy advances of Tom Paris: “Do you always fly at women at warp speed, Mister Paris?”
Paris: “Only when they're in visual range.” Oh puke, man! Puke and double puke! Luckily, they quickly discarded these chat-up lines.

I'll give you that. Although I find the racist line right before that more cringe-worthy.

Quote:

Neelix. Oh dear god! Neelix! Why? WHY?

Quote:

(More on that later, you can be sure).

What is so terrible about Neelix? The scenes between him and Tuvoc were delightful.

Quote:

Okay, those little niggles aside, I have, to be fair, few problems with this first episode. Well, I'd be a right dick if I kicked it on its maiden voyage now wouldn't I? But there is one fundamental flaw with the storyline that I have, and it needs to be addressed now, as it affected my enjoyment of the series ever after. The Maquis are the sworn enemy of the Federation and Starfleet, believing themselves betrayed by the one and chased by the other. Voyager was hunting them when they all got pulled into the Delta Quadrant. Now, at the end of the first episode, Janeway decides that “this will be one crew: a Starfleet crew.” And nobody has any objections?

Everyone just accepts it. There are no dissenting voices, despite Torres's perceived hatred of the Federation and not to mention that these are all technically outlaws. But to an extent that's ok: everyone has to live together and they're the only ones of their species --- so far as they know --- in this quadrant. But the seeds could and should have been sown for a real power struggle, as factions within the crew still loyal to the ideals of the Maquis sought to disrupt the missions, perhaps not quite sabotage the ship but certainly do all they could to make life harder for Janeway and Starfleet. After all, at this moment were they to get home all the Maquis would likely be imprisoned. They don't have a lot to look forward to.

It could have given rise to some great stories, some fine plots: a real Fifth Column within the Voyager crew. But it never happened. There was no uprising, no “terror cell”, no clandestine meetings in which the Maquis plotted the overthrow of Janeway and the mutiny on the Voyager. Just never happened. Everyone fell into line. Is that believable? All the hatred, all the injustice, all the sense of betrayal these people had at the Federation and Starfleet just went away, just like that? All was forgiven? Not one person cradled a dark desire to strike back at the military arm of the people who had signed over their homes to the Cardassians? Everyone was okay with it?

This could have provided tension and uncertainty throughout at least the first season. Instead, it was brushed aside as if the Maquis had never existed. A process that would become the norm as this series progressed.

To quote a line from Frasier, “That's what I got a problem with!” and Frasier's snobby reply, “I think he means, that is a thing with which he has a problem!”

Then there's the unilateral decision to destroy the array. Yes, she is captain and generally her word is law. But this was an extreme situation. She was essentially condemning people --- some very young, like Kim --- to what could be a lifetime away from their own kind. She was effectively sentencing the entire crew of Voyager, and the Maquis, to a 75-year prison sentence. They would never see their friends or loved ones again. They would never serve on another starship, unless as a passenger after retirement. If they had children, they could be dead before the crew would even get back to see them. It's a horrible decision she was faced with, and I know it happened quickly and couldn't be debated, but she never even asked anyone. She just made the decision, for everyone.

What about the Maquis? They didn't sign up for this, and they certainly should have been angry at a Starfleet captain --- their enemy --- making such a pronouncement and condemning them to exile. I feel if Picard had been in this position things might have turned out differently. And was a race of aliens they were unaware even existed until a few days ago worth sacrificing the chance of ever seeing home again for?

Oh and I thought of one other thing since writing this: why did Janeway not look for a third option? She had two: destroy the array and be stranded there, or leave it and allow the genocide of the alien race to take place. But there could have been a third choice.

Surely, with all their inventive little Starfleet minds, they could have rigged something that would have detonated AFTER they had used the array to get back home, thereby accomplishing the twin tasks of protecting the Caretaker's legacy and also not forcing their crew to grow old in the Delta Quadant? But it wasn't even discussed. I know they were under attack, but aren't Starfleet personnel supposed to thrive under pressure? Even Tuvok, with his logical Vulcan mind, couldn't think of an alternative? He didn't question the captain's --- on the face of it --- crazy order? I know the needs of the many are supposed to outweigh the needs of the few, but come on...

Well, over to you, Bats!

Nobody ever watched Voyager for its brilliant writing. They watch it cause it's another chance to see Star Trek-style sci-fi goodness. Is the ease with which the Maquis and Federation get along dubious? Yes. But it's just a setup for the rest of the series, so who really gives a ****?

I will also point out that we are reviewing one episode at this point, and not an entire series, or even an entire season. So his points about how the series may or may not develop are irrelevant at this point and should be ignored. I would also like to say that, while it has been years since I have an episode of Voyager, I do remember there being tension with at least part of the Maquis. How this played out I really don't remember, but I question whether my colleague even knows what he's talking about, since it sounds like it's been a long while since my vaguely-esteemed colleague has even seen an episode of Voyager, so it seems unfair for him to be referencing views that may have been colored with the passing of years.

But aside from Trollheart's pithy whining about the Maquis, I was surprisingly entertained by this episode. The buildup before Voyager was dropped into the Delta quadrant wasn't anything particularly special, but the array being populated by holographic hillbillies was more than a little amusing, and did a nice job pulling the rug out from under me. There have been many odd episodes of Star Trek over the years, but I wasn't expecting to have something like that dropped on my head so quickly.

The underground city was probably the biggest highlight though. I imagine the special effects they used to render it so bitchin'ly cost more than a normal episode would allow, but as a way to impress right off the bat, it worked quite well.

(Unfortunately the only scans I could find are kind of ****ty.)

Spoiler for isdbvd:

This wasn't the most brilliant episode of Star Trek ever by any means, but it was still a fair amount of fun, and Trollheart seems to be going out of his way to rob himself of that fun.

Trollheart · 10-25-2014, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

What is so terrible about Neelix? The scenes between him and Tuvoc were delightful.

Dear God, where do I start? From his annoying Edwardian gentleman voice to his calling Tuvok "Mister Vulcan", the guy just totally got on my nerves. But if you want to hobble me by saying we can only talk about THIS episode, not how much he bugged me ever afterwards, then this: his original first act with his "new friends" was to trick them into helping him rescue his girlfriend, and THEN he wanted to **** off and leave them to their own devices. It was KES who convinced him to stay and help. He had no intention of doing so. What a little wanker.

And did we really have to see him naked in the very first friggin' episode?

Quote:

Nobody ever watched Voyager for its brilliant writing. They watch it cause it's another chance to see Star Trek-style sci-fi goodness.

Now here i have to put my hoof down. This is/was not just any old series we are talking about here. This is Star Trek, part of a proud tradition which includes some stellar (pun intended) writing. The writing on ST was so good that when they wrote a duff one (given that most of the series struggled to find their feet in season one) it really stood out. If you decide to jump on that bandwagon you sure as hell better have your writing pants on!

This was a series that was to join the hallowed ranks of Next Generation, Deep Space 9 and the original Star Trek. Trekkers expected it to be well-written, which is why it was so slated. You don't get a pass for saying "oh it's just fun and everyone was just glad to see more Trek." Incorrect. Trekkers had Next Gen and Deep Space 9. Another series was welcome, sure, but they weren't so starved for Trek that they would accept any old ****e. This had to be good, and to my mind it did not measure up. In fact, you as much as agree with me by saying that good writing was not expected. What crap. Of course it was.

Quote:

Is the ease with which the Maquis and Federation get along dubious? Yes. But it's just a setup for the rest of the series, so who really gives a ****?

Um. Me and who-knows-how-many other Trekkers. Again, a sense of reality is expected. On Babylon 5, races often did not get along and this created a sense of tension and drama. Christ, even in the original Trek there was one episode where, when we finally get our first glimpse of what a Romulan looks like, and they're seen to be cousins to Vulcans, Spock is under suspicion. These things happen. They're meant to happen and they should lead somewhere. The Maquis just giving up their ideals, there and then, and throwing in with their enemy is unrealistic. Maybe after some time they might have realised they had to live together and a temporary truce been arranged, but not on the first effing day! And with no repercussions?

Quote:

I will also point out that we are reviewing one episode at this point, and not an entire series, or even an entire season. So his points about how the series may or may not develop are irrelevant at this point and should be ignored.

I agree and don't. As we've both seen the series our comments are put in context by what happened down the line. Otherwise I could say, for instance, "Who knows? Maybe Paris dies!" But we know he doesn't. So I have to sort of look ahead, and show you how certain situations developed and to my mind proved me correct. I do take your point though, and will try to confine my comments to the episode in hand and any previous ones as we go on, though I can't guarantee I won't reference a future one IF it seems relevant to my argument at the time.

Quote:

I would also like to say that, while it has been years since I have an episode of Voyager, I do remember there being tension with at least part of the Maquis. How this played out I really don't remember

Where? I could be wrong, but from what I recall the only real incident came in "Worst case scenario", which turned out to be a plot for a holo-novel!

Quote:

, but I question whether my colleague even knows what he's talking about, since it sounds like it's been a long while since my vaguely-esteemed colleague has even seen an episode of Voyager, so it seems unfair for him to be referencing views that may have been colored with the passing of years.

That is your opinion. You don't know how long it is since I saw "Voyager", and anyway, how long since you saw it? Nevertheless, I have watched the entire series at least four times from beginning to end, so I think I do know what I'm wittering on about thank you so very much.

Quote:

But aside from Trollheart's pithy whining about the Maquis, I was surprisingly entertained by this episode. The buildup before Voyager was dropped into the Delta quadrant wasn't anything particularly special, but the array being populated by holographic hillbillies

A typical event that could have taken place in Next Gen on the holodeck. Clever in its way but I feel a little derivative, since NG had done this kind of thing so much already. Not to mention DS9's first episode had the Prophets doing something similar as they walked around in Sisko's mind.

Quote:

This wasn't the most brilliant episode of Star Trek ever by any means, but it was still a fair amount of fun, and Trollheart seems to be going out of his way to rob himself of that fun.

Not at all. I did enjoy Voyager first time round but remember it was running in tandem with DS9, so I was always going to compare it to that show, and of course NexGen and even TOS. I have to be honest, I don't watch any Star Trek series JUST for fun. Comedy shows are there for that. I watch to be entertained certainly, but also to be surprised, angered, shocked, saddened and most of all moved. While obviously not every ep of NG or DS9 did that, I can say that many more episodes from each series did than happened with Voyager. I guess it was "Star Trek-lite" in a way. But I personally don't hate it, I just don't think it came anywhere close to carrying on the legacy we (at least, I) had grown up on for over forty-five years.

I'll have plenty of good things to say about the show, but when it sucked it sucked a big one, and it sucked more often that not. That's my main contention and the end of this current submission. Thank you for your time.

Any biscuits around here?

Unknown Soldier · 10-28-2014, 09:46 AM

I aim to watch some of these Voyager episodes starting with the opening episode in the next few days.

Trollheart · 11-27-2014, 08:29 PM

Batty, are we getting back to this? It's been over a month since we last posted. I'm waiting for you but I can start again if you want. If however you're fed up with it, lost interest or too busy we can drop it, but I'd rather know if you intend keeping this going. If so, we need to be more regular with our entries; this is on the third page of the journals section already. We need to remain on the second at worst but preferably nearer the first page.

Let me know your thoughts. I know it might seem like maybe this was a cool idea and now you're not interested or haven't the time, so I understand if that's the case but I would like to know where I stand.

Unknown Soldier · 11-28-2014, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Batty, are we getting back to this? It's been over a month since we last posted. I'm waiting for you but I can start again if you want. If however you're fed up with it, lost interest or too busy we can drop it, but I'd rather know if you intend keeping this going. If so, we need to be more regular with our entries; this is on the third page of the journals section already. We need to remain on the second at worst but preferably nearer the first page.

Let me know your thoughts. I know it might seem like maybe this was a cool idea and now you're not interested or haven't the time, so I understand if that's the case but I would like to know where I stand.

I thought this journal had disappeared down a wormhole.

Trollheart · 11-28-2014, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I thought this journal had disappeared down a wormhole.

Come on, you know Star Trek: there's always "one last, desperate chance. If we realign the phase inventers and switch the matter streams, turn on the Boussard collectors and reverse the neutrino streams..."

In other words, even the dead don't stay dead. So there's a chance. If himself wants to...

Trollheart · 12-19-2014, 05:47 PM

We've put this on ice till after Christmas, but I just wanted to throw out an idea. I don't even know if my learned friend (!) is into it, but we were discussing this week the merits of the Star Wars movies over each other, and it occurred to me that people might be interested in us nerd-slapping each other over things like that too. Or would you prefer to keep it all Voyager? Or do you care?

If Batty is not interested in doing that, and someone else is I would be happy to debate with them, but if nobody thinks it's a good idea we can keep this "Voyager-pure". Just an idea as I say. It could even --- maybe --- be expanded out into films other than sci-fi. Maybe.

10-23-2014, 05:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	"Mr. Paris ... Engage!" Okay then, let's get this party started! For anyone who needs a refresher, has never seen the series or just needs a basic idea of what we're talking about, here's a Wiki link. We'll do this with each episode. If anyone has any specific questions that aren't answered by reading the Wiki synopsis, ask us. *Season One, Episode One: "Caretaker"* Caretaker (Star Trek: Voyager) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A few snarky and really unimportant points before I make my case: Cheesy lines: Betazoid (Scotty?) rebuffing the clumsy advances of Tom Paris: “Do you always fly at women at warp speed, Mister Paris?” Paris: “Only when they're in visual range.” Oh puke, man! Puke and double puke! Luckily, they quickly discarded these chat-up lines. Neelix. Oh dear god! Neelix! Why? WHY? (More on that later, you can be sure). Okay, those little niggles aside, I have, to be fair, few problems with this first episode. Well, I'd be a right dick if I kicked it on its maiden voyage now wouldn't I? But there is one fundamental flaw with the storyline that I have, and it needs to be addressed now, as it affected my enjoyment of the series ever after. The Maquis are the sworn enemy of the Federation and Starfleet, believing themselves betrayed by the one and chased by the other. Voyager was hunting them when they all got pulled into the Delta Quadrant. Now, at the end of the first episode, Janeway decides that “this will be one crew: a Starfleet crew.” And nobody has any objections? Everyone just accepts it. There are no dissenting voices, despite Torres's perceived hatred of the Federation and not to mention that these are all technically outlaws. But to an extent that's ok: everyone has to live together and they're the only ones of their species --- so far as they know --- in this quadrant. But the seeds could and should have been sown for a real power struggle, as factions within the crew still loyal to the ideals of the Maquis sought to disrupt the missions, perhaps not quite sabotage the ship but certainly do all they could to make life harder for Janeway and Starfleet. After all, at this moment were they to get home all the Maquis would likely be imprisoned. They don't have a lot to look forward to. It could have given rise to some great stories, some fine plots: a real Fifth Column within the Voyager crew. But it never happened. There was no uprising, no “terror cell”, no clandestine meetings in which the Maquis plotted the overthrow of Janeway and the mutiny on the Voyager. Just never happened. Everyone fell into line. Is that believable? All the hatred, all the injustice, all the sense of betrayal these people had at the Federation and Starfleet just went away, just like that? All was forgiven? Not one person cradled a dark desire to strike back at the military arm of the people who had signed over their homes to the Cardassians? Everyone was okay with it? This could have provided tension and uncertainty throughout at least the first season. Instead, it was brushed aside as if the Maquis had never existed. A process that would become the norm as this series progressed. To quote a line from Frasier, “That's what I got a problem with!” and Frasier's snobby reply, “I think he means, that is a thing with which he has a problem!” Then there's the unilateral decision to destroy the array. Yes, she is captain and generally her word is law. But this was an extreme situation. She was essentially condemning people --- some very young, like Kim --- to what could be a lifetime away from their own kind. She was effectively sentencing the entire crew of Voyager, and the Maquis, to a 75-year prison sentence. They would never see their friends or loved ones again. They would never serve on another starship, unless as a passenger after retirement. If they had children, they could be dead before the crew would even get back to see them. It's a horrible decision she was faced with, and I know it happened quickly and couldn't be debated, but she never even asked anyone. She just made the decision, for everyone. What about the Maquis? They didn't sign up for this, and they certainly should have been angry at a Starfleet captain --- their enemy --- making such a pronouncement and condemning them to exile. I feel if Picard had been in this position things might have turned out differently. And was a race of aliens they were unaware even existed until a few days ago worth sacrificing the chance of ever seeing home again for? Oh and I thought of one other thing since writing this: why did Janeway not look for a third option? She had two: destroy the array and be stranded there, or leave it and allow the genocide of the alien race to take place. But there could have been a third choice. Surely, with all their inventive little Starfleet minds, they could have rigged something that would have detonated AFTER they had used the array to get back home, thereby accomplishing the twin tasks of protecting the Caretaker's legacy and also not forcing their crew to grow old in the Delta Quadant? But it wasn't even discussed. I know they were under attack, but aren't Starfleet personnel supposed to thrive under pressure? Even Tuvok, with his logical Vulcan mind, couldn't think of an alternative? He didn't question the captain's --- on the face of it --- crazy order? I know the needs of the many are supposed to outweigh the needs of the few, but come on... Well, over to you, Bats! __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

11-27-2014, 08:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	Batty, are we getting back to this? It's been over a month since we last posted. I'm waiting for you but I can start again if you want. If however you're fed up with it, lost interest or too busy we can drop it, but I'd rather know if you intend keeping this going. If so, we need to be more regular with our entries; this is on the third page of the journals section already. We need to remain on the second at worst but preferably nearer the first page. Let me know your thoughts. I know it might seem like maybe this was a cool idea and now you're not interested or haven't the time, so I understand if that's the case but I would like to know where I stand. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

12-19-2014, 05:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	We've put this on ice till after Christmas, but I just wanted to throw out an idea. I don't even know if my learned friend (!) is into it, but we were discussing this week the merits of the Star Wars movies over each other, and it occurred to me that people might be interested in us nerd-slapping each other over things like that too. Or would you prefer to keep it all Voyager? Or do you care? If Batty is not interested in doing that, and someone else is I would be happy to debate with them, but if nobody thinks it's a good idea we can keep this "Voyager-pure". Just an idea as I say. It could even --- maybe --- be expanded out into films other than sci-fi. Maybe. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018