MB's Video Game Classics: Super Smash Bros Melee

Key · 06-24-2018, 01:03 PM

Definitely one of my favorite Smash games. Though I feel they've progressively gotten better or worse depending on how you look at it.

grindy · 06-24-2018, 01:21 PM

Brawl is the ultimate Smash Bros. for me.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 05:34 PM

Top ten party game, and still fun even after the party ends.

First Smash Bros was one of the wake up calls for fighting game developers, who took note of Nintendo's success. People were tired of insanely steep learning curves and obscene AI difficulty. The age of the arcade was ending, being more and more eclipsed by home consoles, and arcade gameplay had less appeal to people on couches than in front of cabinets (I still love old school arcade fighters, though

). They just wanted a casual, uber-combo free fighting game that wasn't movie licensed garbage and didn't suck. And, yeah, filled with gallons of Mario Kart esque cheap ass items to cheese your friends off with. Now, Steam is full of party fighting games that have all taken the cues from the Bros. And there's even professional Smash tourneys for those blessed with otherworldly reflexes.

Melee carried on the torch, and was an improvement on every level. Still loved and lauded for its tight and fast gameplay. 10/10

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

funny thing is Melee at the top level is actually the most technical fighting game there is, requiring the highest APM and maneuvers that are ridiculously frame tight

this is why melee is great, easier to pick up than traditional fighters, while still having their infinite skill ceilings

Nah. Tekken is by far the most technical. Every character has enough moves and quirks to fill a small country. It can take years to master just one. Try Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and you'll see what I mean. Competitive play is impossible for anyone not willing to make it their occupation.

And for raw speed, reaction time, and frame counting goodness, Street Fighter will always a bit of an edge over Smash due to the comparatively tiny stages that force immediate and constant pressure. Each character has just a few moves, and combos are extremely limited compared to the juggling of Tekken and MK. But the top tier players straight up have to be the fastest thinkers of any e-sport.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

it requires more knowledge but I'm telling you in terms of raw technicality Melee being a broken game where you're almost inputting speed running type glitches "tech" makes the APM requirement objectively more than Street Fighter

in terms of knowledge sure other fighters dwarf Melee in terms of matchups by sheer amount of viable characters, and the wider array of moves

Nah, Smash is much more about mobility, positioning, and space control. The key way to win, even in stock matches, is much less about memorizing the frames of each character's attacks, and more about the relative long game of positioning yourself well on the stage and making the enemy come to you.

SF is immediate, forced conflict, with large stage positioning taken out of the equation. It has the same speed as Smash, only the onus is on the attacks themselves, and landing each perfectly. If you think Smash tech and exploits of quirks is demanding, you really should give SF a try. There's so much more to learn, for such a simple game.

Btw, just curious, have you ever watched professional Tekken matches? It's madness. Fucking damage altering hitboxes for every limb, and players spend years honing all the variations of every possible way to combo and juggle every other char in the way that does the most damage to each. Various chars have stances that can change their fighting style on a dime. Couple all that with reflex intensive counters, and it just gets ridiculous. Every move in Tekken must be perfect, or you instantly get stuck in an inescapable combo.

Smash is a game where an amateur with great reflexes could beat a pro maybe once out of twenty matches. SF is more like once out of thirty. But with Tekken, an amateur straight up can not win.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 07:41 PM

Tbh though elph, now that I think about it, even though I think SF really does have more tech and tricks to learn for a reflex-centric game with such limited moves per character, I could see the argument that the space play and edge play of Smash makes it more complex. Learning the physics of hits to knock people over, learning meteor smashes to keep them off, etc.

But when it comes to pure reflexes, the forced proximity of SF puts quick thinking to the foray and makes the margin of error much smaller imo. You can't run and buy for time when you're ahead in the match. You have so much less space and time to set things up. And since jumps are so much shorter, anti-airs/cross-ups have to be split second perfect.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

no no what I'm refering to, if you aren't aware, are the advance techniques required at high level play that require a lot of button presses in a short window

things like L-Cancel, Wavedash, edge-cancel, stage tech, shffling etc.

the translation of amount of buttons you have to push is like english to spanish, it's just wordier

for example, to optimally do something as simple as an ariel attack, you have to short hop, hit the directional attack immediately after to perform a rising ariel, hit down on the control stick at the exact pinnacle of your jump to fast fall, then hit L as soon as you hit the ground to cancel landing lag

it is literally 4 to 5 inputs done in less than a second to do a very simple move

and pretty much every aspect of the game can be sped up this way, which is why a better Melee player won't just outsmart his opponent or know the combos, his character will literally move up to twice as fast

I'm guessing you're new to competitive fighting games? If not, no offense, but you should be blushing after saying something like this to any player of any major fighting game franchise.

I'm actually kind of shocked that you think rigorous cancelling and quick succession inputs are unique to high level Smash play, or that the speed of Smash inputs are faster and more difficult to master than high level SF play.

Have you ever played Street Fighter, or watched any competitive matches? Attacks and blocks are very comparable in speed to Smash, and learning exactly what to input to minimize frames and avoid any possible lags after lands/certain techniques is just as important. In fact, Street Fighter 2 pretty much invented cancelling (people actually thought it was a bug when the game first came out: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/...ing-wasnt-bug/).

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the intended lag canceling that's in Melee may be directly influenced by Street Fighter

but it doesn't change the fact that when pushed to its limit Melee requires more precise inputs per second to play than Street Fighter, you can measure the APMs

what constitutes "technical" however is blurry granted, and what is difficult can vary from player to player, I just think it's interesting an intended party game can be almost up in the Starcraft 1 levels of APM

Judging by attacks per minute isn't a perfect gauge, as standard SF is about killing your opponent only two times, while standard Smash is about killing your opponent as many times as possible. The limited lives and stage space in a standard match make the allowance of errors and chance for recovery in SF is so much smaller, and the punishment for a mistake so much higher, even though the reflexive requirements are similar. Even if the high level APM in SF is less than Smash, the fact that it's even comparable despite the fundamental differences in styles is actually kind of a testament to how much complexity SF has in spite of its seeming simplicity and lack of Smash's spacial complexity.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 10:02 PM

You never answered whether you've played SF, or watched any SF competitions. I think you'd really like it if you gave it a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

as far as I'm aware they're not really comparable

Now what makes Melee just a superior game is DI and how the combo game is so jazzy, most combos are improvised on the spot rather than based on memorized sequences

SF is the same way. Each character has just a few moves, so few that you can basically learn to execute them all in like an hour or less. Just like with Smash, the complexity doesn't come from huge pre-set or memorized combos. It's not like Tekken, with uber-combos that people practice for years. The emphasis is much more on taking the few tools you're given, and learning to use and combine them free-form at the right moment with perfect timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

you want to blink forward, you double tap the stick in every fighter

but nah not in Melee, you have to do some jank ass directional air dodge into the ground that requires 4 inputs and a week minimum to learn because it's not even meant to be in the game

If complexity gets you hard, you should see all of the weird ways people have learned to maneuver in Tekken. Play TTT2 and you'll see what I mean. Just one character has more complexity, more tech (both intentionally made by the devs and unintentional), more tricks to discover, than the entirety of Melee. I'm not even exaggerating. You wouldn't believe the insane streams of inputs people string together with utter perfection in just one or two seconds.

To be a top level player, you have to experiment with every strike, stance, counter, cancel, every single movement you can possibly make, and find every variation of how they all bleed together. Just the standard command list, the absolute basics that the game gives you before you learn advanced techniques and make your own combos, is like Stephen King novel long. And those are basically just the suggestions the devs put in for newbies.

Doubt you'd like it, though. High level play is much less about on-the-fly snap strikes, and much more about setting up the inescapable juggling sequences you've memorized. The APM is probably hilariously low, since experts can kill with just three or four hits to the head, and matches tend to end very quickly.

Oriphiel · 06-24-2018, 10:19 PM

One thing I miss about Smash is block rolling. Felt so good and responsive. I used to cheese mother fuckers with it all the time.

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06-24-2018, 01:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	MB's Video Game Classics: Super Smash Bros Melee Definitely one of my favorite Smash games. Though I feel they've progressively gotten better or worse depending on how you look at it.

06-24-2018, 01:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	Brawl is the ultimate Smash Bros. for me. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

06-24-2018, 05:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Top ten party game, and still fun even after the party ends. First Smash Bros was one of the wake up calls for fighting game developers, who took note of Nintendo's success. People were tired of insanely steep learning curves and obscene AI difficulty. The age of the arcade was ending, being more and more eclipsed by home consoles, and arcade gameplay had less appeal to people on couches than in front of cabinets (I still love old school arcade fighters, though ). They just wanted a casual, uber-combo free fighting game that wasn't movie licensed garbage and didn't suck. And, yeah, filled with gallons of Mario Kart esque cheap ass items to cheese your friends off with. Now, Steam is full of party fighting games that have all taken the cues from the Bros. And there's even professional Smash tourneys for those blessed with otherworldly reflexes. Melee carried on the torch, and was an improvement on every level. Still loved and lauded for its tight and fast gameplay. 10/10 __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------

06-24-2018, 07:41 PM	#6 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Tbh though elph, now that I think about it, even though I think SF really does have more tech and tricks to learn for a reflex-centric game with such limited moves per character, I could see the argument that the space play and edge play of Smash makes it more complex. Learning the physics of hits to knock people over, learning meteor smashes to keep them off, etc. But when it comes to pure reflexes, the forced proximity of SF puts quick thinking to the foray and makes the margin of error much smaller imo. You can't run and buy for time when you're ahead in the match. You have so much less space and time to set things up. And since jumps are so much shorter, anti-airs/cross-ups have to be split second perfect. __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------

06-24-2018, 10:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	One thing I miss about Smash is block rolling. Felt so good and responsive. I used to cheese mother fuckers with it all the time. __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------