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OccultHawk 05-20-2017 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1837844)
Well I guess if you're some basic plebe who can't read a book without action scenes every three pages...

Or maybe it's kind of hard to give a **** about the mountain ranges of Middle Earth.

Pet_Sounds 05-20-2017 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1837830)
Plenty of fiction has philosophy. But it's fiction cause it makes up stories.

Those books were intended as works of fiction, however. The Bible is intended as history (most of the Old Testament, some of the New) and philosophy (most of the New, some of the Old). Sure, its veracity is questionable, but an inaccurate history is still non-fiction.

We now know that much of On the Origin of Species is incorrect. Should it be classified as fiction?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1837831)
Well I've never read it and I know enough about history by reading, you know, history, not some (as Batty says) made-up half-fairytale crap. Stuff like that poisons the perception, I feel. I certainly wouldn't want someone to read that and think "Gee! There really was a Garden of Eden?" :rolleyes: As close to fiction as it gets.

It the whole Bible was a carbon copy of the first chapter of Genesis, you'd be right.

To quote Hilaire Belloc: "The whole story of Europe, her various realms and states and general bodies during the last sixteen centuries has mainly turned upon the successive heresies arising in the Christian world." In my mind, one needs to understand Christian philosophy in order to appreciate that story. Whether you read the Bible itself or some scholar's interpretation doesn't really matter, but I included the original source.

EDIT: Should add that similar reasoning could be used to justify the Quran's placement on my list.

Trollheart 05-21-2017 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds (Post 1837853)
In my mind, one needs to understand Christian philosophy in order to appreciate that story. Whether you read the Bible itself or some scholar's interpretation doesn't really matter, but I included the original source.

You really don't. There's enough information about Christianity around from movies, other books, novels, and of course the Church themselves that I imagine the percentage of people who have actually read the Bible - as in, read it all the way through, not just a few passages - other than the clergy obviously - would be exceptionally small. And yet we all know about Christianity and the Crusades and Jesus and Pilate and the Crucifixion and all that stuff.

Absolutely not essential reading. Do you need to read Mein Kampf to learn about Hitler? Or The Origin of Species to know about Darwin? This stuff is readily available from other sources, multiple sources. By all means, read the Bible if you want, or feel you need to, but don't quote it as a book everyone should or needs to read, cos that just is not true.

OccultHawk 05-21-2017 03:26 PM

I think you're low balling the importance of reading primary sources.

It's not just about collecting the facts. It's a matter of getting a feel for the real thing. With Hitler, Darwin, Marx, Freud - reading their actual words takes you more into their minds. In my case, I read that stuff and only marginally understood most of it- but I think it was worthwhile to wade through those waters while I still had the energy. Maybe I was kidding myself but I felt like I was building a foundation.

Pet_Sounds 05-21-2017 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1838114)
You really don't. There's enough information about Christianity around from movies, other books, novels, and of course the Church themselves that I imagine the percentage of people who have actually read the Bible - as in, read it all the way through, not just a few passages - other than the clergy obviously - would be exceptionally small. And yet we all know about Christianity and the Crusades and Jesus and Pilate and the Crucifixion and all that stuff.

I agree that you don't need to read every single book—skip most of the Old Testament if you want—and perhaps my post should have reflected that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1838114)
Absolutely not essential reading. Do you need to read Mein Kampf to learn about Hitler? Or The Origin of Species to know about Darwin? This stuff is readily available from other sources, multiple sources. By all means, read the Bible if you want, or feel you need to, but don't quote it as a book everyone should or needs to read, cos that just is not true.

As I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds (Post 1837853)
Whether you read the Bible itself or some scholar's interpretation doesn't really matter, but I included the original source.

However, I believe it's always better to go straight to the source if you want to understand something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk (Post 1838162)
I think you're low balling the importance of reading primary sources.

It's not just about collecting the facts. It's a matter of getting a feel for the real thing. With Hitler, Darwin, Marx, Freud - reading their actual words takes you more into their minds. In my case, I read that stuff and only marginally understood most of it- but I think it was worthwhile to wade through those waters while I still had the energy. Maybe I was kidding myself but I felt like I was building a foundation.

This is sort of what I'm trying to say.

Think of it this way: If Donald Trump passes a new executive order, what's the best way to understand it? To read the text of the executive order—or at least an objective analysis. It's the same with the Bible. I know you're no fan of religion—and believe me, neither am I—but that book has shaped the world we live in today. Just look at the conflicts that have arisen over its interpretation in your own country. Name a book that has had a greater influence on the history of the world.

Chula Vista 05-21-2017 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds (Post 1838182)
Name a book that has had a greater influence on the history of the world.

Fox in Socks.

(I've bet dozens of people through the years to try and read the entire book out loud without tripping and no-one has ever taken my cash - that's pretty damn significant)

Pet_Sounds 05-21-2017 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1838185)
Fox in Socks.

Mr. Knox. Now come now. Come now.
You don't have to be so dumb now...

Trollheart 05-21-2017 05:45 PM

I don't see how reading a religious propaganda "novel" with witches and goblins and fairies helps you understand history. Most of it could never have happened in reality - people rising from the dead? Seas parting? Give me a break.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds (Post 1838182)
. Name a book that has had a greater influence on the history of the world.

Any Harry Potter book, Lord of the Rings, the Dictionary, or, to be serious, A Christmas Carol, or any Dickens work. The Prince. Nineteen-Eighty Four. I could go on.

I will.

Sherlock Holmes series changed how we think about police/detective work. HP Lovecraft and Poe brought horror into the mainstream. Tons of others. All the Bible is is a big fat book that tells you what to do, and as I say, I can guarantee you the smallest percentage of Christians have ever even opened the damn thing.

Frownland 05-21-2017 05:46 PM

It seems like you're worried that you'll get swept up into propaganda just by reading it. Just read it with a critical eye.

Trollheart 05-21-2017 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1838235)
It seems like you're worried that you'll get swept up into propaganda just by reading it. Just read it with a critical eye.

Nah, their propaganda don't work on me. I actually tried to read it once, long ago. Bored the arse off me. You'd think a collaboration between four of Jesus's top men, they could have at least made it a cracking read, wouldn't you?


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