Oriphiel, let's discuss 2001: A Space Odyssey

**Exo** · 03-28-2015, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

To be fair, though, most of the young guys who like the movie are a bunch of meathead morons who miss the point.

Ugggghhhh, I hate when people miss the point of this film. That being said, I don't think the film is a masterpiece anymore. I do however think it's a very unique film, featuring very unique performances, directed by a very unique man. Like, that film is just gorgeous. The twist never really resonated well with me. I feel there are better twist endings out there. The amount of detail in the film though under the skin that leads up to that twist though? Brilliant.

I'll always love the film but I realize it's not a masterpiece of American cinema. It's just a really f*cking well made film.

Chula Vista · 03-28-2015, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Hey Chula, this discussion was pretty fun! Do you want to have another, with a different movie?

Changing the title to Kubrick. Let's do The Shining next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

P.S. In a little less than a couple of weeks, we have proto-metal in the Metal Album Survivor thread. Zeppelin, Sabbath, UFO, etc. I expect you to show up when the time comes.

I'll be there with bells on!

Chula Vista · 03-28-2015, 07:19 PM

The Shining.

Based on the trailer people were foaming at the mouth waiting to see this movie.

We saw it in a packed theater and to say it was a let down was an understatement. People were all murmuring how much it sucked as they left the theater. The critics ravaged the flick in the papers and box office numbers quickly went down.

Today I consider it one of the greatest movies ever made and a lot of the same critics that hated it in 1980, now consider it a horror masterpiece.

Again, let's turn to Roger Ebert.

Quote:

Stanley Kubrick's cold and frightening "The Shining" challenges us to decide: Who is the reliable observer? Whose idea of events can we trust? In the opening scene at a job interview, the characters seem reliable enough, although the dialogue has a formality that echoes the small talk on the space station in "2001." We meet Jack Torrance (Jack Nicholson), a man who plans to live for the winter in solitude and isolation with his wife and son. He will be the caretaker of the snowbound Overlook Hotel. His employer warns that a former caretaker murdered his wife and two daughters, and committed suicide, but Jack reassures him: "You can rest assured, Mr. Ullman, that's not gonna happen with me. And as far as my wife is concerned, I'm sure she'll be absolutely fascinated when I tell her about it. She's a confirmed ghost story and horror film addict."

Do people talk this way about real tragedies? Will his wife be absolutely fascinated? Does he ever tell her about it? Jack, wife Wendy (Shelley Duvall) and son Danny (Danny Lloyd) move into the vast hotel just as workers are shutting it down for the winter; the chef, Dick Hallorann (Scatman Crothers) gives them a tour, with emphasis on the food storage locker ("You folks can eat up here a whole year and never have the same menu twice"). Then they're alone, and a routine begins: Jack sits at a typewriter in the great hall, pounding relentlessly at his typewriter, while Wendy and Danny put together a version of everyday life that includes breakfast cereal, toys and a lot of TV. There is no sense that the three function together as a loving family.

Danny: Is he reliable? He has an imaginary friend named Tony, who speaks in a lower register of Danny's voice. In a brief conversation before the family is left alone, Hallorann warns Danny to stay clear of Room 237, where the violence took place, and he tells Danny they share the "shining," the psychic gift of reading minds and seeing the past and future. Danny tells Dick that Tony doesn't want him to discuss such things. Who is Tony? "A little boy who lives in my mouth."

Tony seems to be Danny's device for channeling psychic input, including a shocking vision of blood spilling from around the closed doors of the hotel elevators. Danny also sees two little girls dressed in matching outfits; although we know there was a two-year age difference in the murdered children, both girls look curiously old. If Danny is a reliable witness, he is witness to specialized visions of his own that may not correspond to what is actually happening in the hotel.

That leaves Wendy, who for most of the movie has that matter-of-fact banality that Shelley Duvall also conveyed in Altman's "3 Women." She is a companion and playmate for Danny, and tries to cheer Jack until he tells her, suddenly and obscenely, to stop interrupting his work. Much later, she discovers the reality of that work, in one of the movie's shocking revelations. She is reliable at that moment, I believe, and again toward the end when she bolts Jack into the food locker after he turns violent.

But there is a deleted scene from "The Shining" (1980) that casts Wendy's reliability in a curious light. Near the end of the film, on a frigid night, Jack chases Danny into the labyrinth on the hotel grounds. His son escapes, and Jack, already wounded by a baseball bat, staggers, falls and is seen the next day, dead, his face frozen into a ghastly grin. He is looking up at us from under lowered brows, in an angle Kubrick uses again and again in his work. Here is the deletion, reported by the critic Tim Dirks: "A two-minute explanatory epilogue was cut shortly after the film's premiere. It was a hospital scene with Wendy talking to the hotel manager; she is told that searchers were unable to locate her husband's body."

If Jack did indeed freeze to death in the labyrinth, of course his body was found -- and sooner rather than later, since Dick Hallorann alerted the forest rangers to serious trouble at the hotel. If Jack's body was not found, what happened to it? Was it never there? Was it absorbed into the past, and does that explain Jack's presence in that final photograph of a group of hotel partygoers in 1921? Did Jack's violent pursuit of his wife and child exist entirely in Wendy's imagination, or Danny's, or theirs?

The one observer who seems trustworthy at all times is Dick Hallorann, but his usefulness ends soon after his midwinter return to the hotel. That leaves us with a closed-room mystery: In a snowbound hotel, three people descend into versions of madness or psychic terror, and we cannot depend on any of them for an objective view of what happens. It is this elusive open-endedness that makes Kubrick's film so strangely disturbing.

Yes, it is possible to understand some of the scenes of hallucination. When Jack thinks he is seeing other people, there is always a mirror present; he may be talking with himself. When Danny sees the little girls and the rivers of blood, he may be channeling the past tragedy. When Wendy thinks her husband has gone mad, she may be correct, even though her perception of what happens may be skewed by psychic input from her son, who was deeply scarred by his father's brutality a few years earlier. But what if there is no body at the end?

Kubrick was wise to remove that epilogue. It pulled one rug too many out from under the story. At some level, it is necessary for us to believe the three members of the Torrance family are actually residents in the hotel during that winter, whatever happens or whatever they think happens.

Those who have read Stephen King's original novel report that Kubrick dumped many plot elements and adapted the rest to his uses. Kubrick is telling a story with ghosts (the two girls, the former caretaker and a bartender), but it isn't a "ghost story," because the ghosts may not be present in any sense at all except as visions experienced by Jack or Danny.

The movie is not about ghosts but about madness and the energies it sets loose in an isolated situation primed to magnify them. Jack is an alcoholic and child abuser who has reportedly not had a drink for five months but is anything but a "recovering alcoholic." When he imagines he drinks with the imaginary bartender, he is as drunk as if he were really drinking, and the imaginary booze triggers all his alcoholic demons, including an erotic vision that turns into a nightmare. We believe Hallorann when he senses Danny has psychic powers, but it's clear Danny is not their master; as he picks up his father's madness and the story of the murdered girls, he conflates it into his fears of another attack by Jack. Wendy, who is terrified by her enraged husband, perhaps also receives versions of this psychic output. They all lose reality together. Yes, there are events we believe: Jack's manuscript, Jack locked in the food storage room, Jack escaping, and the famous "Here's Johnny!" as he hatchets his way through the door. But there is no way, within the film, to be sure with any confidence exactly what happens, or precisely how, or really why.

Kubrick delivers this uncertainty in a film where the actors themselves vibrate with unease. There is one take involving Scatman Crothers that Kubrick famously repeated 160 times. Was that "perfectionism," or was it a mind game designed to convince the actors they were trapped in the hotel with another madman, their director? Did Kubrick sense that their dismay would be absorbed into their performances?

"How was it, working with Kubrick?" I asked Duvall 10 years after the experience.

"Almost unbearable," she said. "Going through day after day of excruciating work, Jack Nicholson's character had to be crazy and angry all the time. And my character had to cry 12 hours a day, all day long, the last nine months straight, five or six days a week. I was there a year and a month. After all that work, hardly anyone even criticized my performance in it, even to mention it, it seemed like. The reviews were all about Kubrick, like I wasn't there."

Like she wasn't there.

Chula Vista · 03-28-2015, 07:36 PM

One other note on 2001. Kubrick's ending is grand but leaves you wondering what happens after the Star Child arrives at earth.

In the book Clarke explains that Star Child detonates all of the orbiting bombs. Earth detects his presence and gets the message to stop with all of the weapons and war posturing.

The Batlord · 03-28-2015, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

One other note on 2001. Kubrick's ending is grand but leaves you wondering what happens after the Star Child arrives at earth.

In the book Clarke explains that Star Child detonates all of the orbiting bombs. Earth detects his presence and gets the message to stop with all of the weapons and war posturing.

Man. Don't **** with KISS.

Oriphiel · 03-28-2015, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Changing the title to Kubrick. Let's do The Shining next.

I'm on it! It's about time that I got around to watching that movie (since I've only ever seen small snippets of it, years ago). I'll watch it tomorrow.

Chula Vista · 03-28-2015, 09:41 PM

Be sure to watch for the dual and sometimes triple narratives going on. That and impossible windows.....

Oriphiel · 03-29-2015, 05:02 PM

Ta da! If you don't feel like reading it (and I can't blame you, I typed way too much), basically I really enjoyed The Shining, and only have one complaint (which I talk about in the second to last paragraph, if you're curious). Also, I just went through and edited out a bunch of errors and misspelled names (man, I wonder how I got Doug Bradley out of Delbert Grady

).

Alright, I watched the movie. It's pretty great! I love the imagery and symbolism, especially the color red (which pops up everywhere. In fact, one of the most tense and important scenes takes place in a room that is completely red). In a way, it's different from 2001 in that it's not nearly as ambiguous. Pretty early on, the movie lets you know that there are indeed supernatural forces at play, with two characters conversing using psychic powers. There are also parts in the movie that make it pretty clear that the ghosts are real, like when Delbert Grady helps Jack out of the pantry by unlocking it from the outside (something Jack probably couldn't have done on his own), and when Danny's encounter with the lady in the bathtub leaves him bruised. Also, Wendy sees two ghosts in a room near the end of the movie, despite neither of her family members having ever told her about the ghosts and visions. But at the same, there really is a lot left to interpretation. Lines like (and i'm paraphrasing, so sorry if I mistype the quotes) "I've always been here, just as you've always been here", "You're money isn't good here, Mr. Torrance", and "Well i'm the kinda guy who likes to know who's buying his drinks!" can mean anything that you're imagination can come up with, from Jack being a puppet of a specific evil force, or being possessed, or being forced into repeating the actions of the past, or maybe even just going insane. The movie gives multiple hints as to what exactly is going on, leading to different possibilities. The first is that the dark events that have happened in the past at the Overlook Hotel have created a sort of impression on the area, which causes the people who enter the hotel to live out the events (such as, an axe murder from years prior). Dick first hints at this when he's explaining to Danny why he's cautious of the hotel; to paraphrase, he says that certain events leave a residue, like burn marks on a piece of toast, and that stumbling unto that residue can be a very dangerous thing. In this scenario, the ghosts of the hotel aren't really evil, they're simply following their roles as they're stuck in the loop, becoming apart of the residue.

Another possibility is that the ghosts of the hotel are evil, and the dark events of the past have caused many ghosts to be concentrated in that area (after all, it was built on a Native American burial ground during a time of bloodshed), possibly acting independently or under the orders of some more powerful entity. When you look at and listen to the ghosts, you immediately see that they're incredibly ominous, but also rigid and almost completely void of emotion (until Delbert Grady pops up near the very end, smiling, with blood on his face). Their demeanor makes them seem like they could just as easily be under orders as they could be acting on their own, or (as suggested earlier) stuck in a time loop. Their words also constantly make hints at each of those scenarios.

You could also come to the conclusion that the hotel itself is an evil entity, and the events of the past have given out so much emotion and energy that it in some way gave the hotel sentience, which isn't too far fetched, since the movie plays the loud sound of a heartbeat during many key moments in the hotel, and one character (I think it was Dick) mentions something about how some places simply "have a life of their own". This makes a strange kind of sense, and it comes with the implication that the ghosts are victims of the hotel, trapped (as the ending suggests, with the picture) and forced to be it's pawns. Maybe the house needs them to continue living? Maybe it is simply acting in the same twisted kind of way that someone with cabin fever gets? After all, if you were alive and alone for many months out of the year, wouldn't you want some pawns to play with (calling back to that freaky "Play with us!" line)? And then when someone threatens you, by say trying to burn you down, or maybe bringing someone with strong psychic powers that can immediately tell that you're evil, wouldn't you "correct them"?

My personal interpretation was that the events of the movie weren't so much about the ghosts, it was more about Jack. I don't know why, but I really got the feeling that he had "the shining" just as his son Danny did. Dick mentions that he and his grandmother both used to talk using only their minds, but also mentions that the shining is very rare, which makes it seem like it's quite possibly something that's hereditary, and passed down. He then says something else that is absolutely key in this scenario: that of all the people who have the gift, many of them will live out their lives without ever even knowing that they had it. The reason that Jack and Danny were so vulnerable to the hotel is that they both had a psychic connection to the events that had befallen it (after all, Dick mentions that people with the shining can see the past and the future). But that raises another question: if there's an alter-ego that reveals things to Danny, is there one that does the same thing to Jack? Dick doesn't seem to have one, but then again, he himself admits that the shining is something that is complicated; if some people don't even realize they have it, isn't it possible for others to have much more depth and complexity to their powers then others? Maybe the alter-ego is just another layer to the shining, one that Dick never reached. But why wouldn't he have reached it? Well, remember early in the movie, when Wendy mentions that Danny's alter ego appeared after Jack dislocated his shoulder? Maybe a traumatic event is what triggers someone's inner powers to the point of having an alter ego.

Consider if Jack's shining was compressed and hidden in his psyche. Nothing ever stimulated his powers, and he never realized they even existed. However, they eventually awoke, possibly from when he injured his son (which he makes very clear was something that devastated him, especially since he seems very defensive over whether he meant to hurt him or not, making it seem like he in his anger did in fact mean to injure Danny). Or maybe it was when he came to the hotel, and the sheer amount of terrible events that had happened there overwhelmed his latent powers, causing them to awaken. Remember when Danny says that his alter ego shows him the future/past in his dreams? Doesn't Jack also see the future in one of his dreams, when he sees himself murdering his family with an axe? I think he wasn't seeing the future; he was seeing the past, his powers forcing him to live through the event through Delbert Grady's eyes. His sense of shame over what he had done to his son caused him to substitute Delbert's family for his own.

Another thing to consider is that Danny's alter-ego pops up every now and then, talking with a different voice and personality than Danny. After arriving at the hotel, Jack occasionally turns into seemingly another person, being incredibly angry and violent at random intervals. The most important thing to consider is this: there is a point in the movie where Danny's alter-ego takes his body over completely, while a heart is beating in the background. At this point, Jack also seems to let his angry persona take him over completely. Is it possible that the heart beat wasn't the house coming to life, but Jack's buried alter-ego finally coming to life?

Even though this is my interpretation, I still recognize that it's kind of full of holes. What exactly was going on when he was at the bar talking to the ghosts? How did Jack get out of the freezer if there really weren't any malevolent ghosts, only images of the past? How did Danny get bruised? One answer is that Jack's powers, combined with his tremendous guilt and the residue of past events left in the house, built the ghosts out of bricks from the past. Maybe he was in control the whole time (or, at least, his subconcious/alter ego was), and he built the scenario as a way of venting his uncontrollable frustrations. His conversations with the ghosts was really him having a conversation with himself, and his alter ego (which makes the whole "I like to know who's paying for my drinks" thing kind of dark, as he himself is the host). Maybe the shining allows thoughts and ideas to take form, which would explain how the pantry door opened, and how Danny was bruised (right, coincidentally enough, when Jack was dreaming about attacking and killing him. Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, was he dreaming when Danny came downstairs? I think I mixed up the scene with when he was dreaming earlier, and Wendy woke him up. Eh, it just means that I have to watch the movie again

).

But maybe the best answer is that it's all of the above in a weird mix. Maybe the house had a life of it's own, there really were ghosts, and things were exasperated by Danny's (and possibly Jack's) powers. That would explain everything from the door, to the bruise, to the photograph at the end. Even for a pretty straightforward film, Kubrick always finds a way to let the audience come up with dozens of explanations for just what exactly was going on. And yes, there's also the possibility that none of the above explanations are correct, and that the whole family was simply affected by cabin fever, making the whole movie a jumble of the various perspectives of twisted minds.

There is only one thing that I disliked about the movie; the soundtrack, and the musical ques. They really weren't horrible, and on the contrary were both creepy and influential, but they too often burst their way into very tense and delicate moments. I think the suspense caused by the dialogue was more than enough to freak people out, and the music just kind of blares up as if telling us when we should be scared (like a horror movie's version of a laugh track). If there's a version out there with no music (save for the phonograph music that plays when the ghosts are around), I'd love to see it, because I think it'd be much more intense and realistic.

Anyway, that's my two cents on The Shining. There's probably someone out there with a much better explanation for the whole "Jack having the shining" theory, and others out there who have theories born from details that I never even noticed (Edit: I looked it up, and yeah, a whole bunch of people have already talked about Jack possibly shining, eventually passing it on to Danny). It really is a great movie, even (or maybe especially) for people who usually avoid the genre and prefer dramas. The amount of detail and imagery definitely warrant multiple viewings, and while the movie probably won't scare any horror movie fans into having nightmares, it'll definitely give you a sense of tense curiosity that almost forces you to watch intently until the end (which is strange, considering that it's movie with little action, little characterization, sparse dialogue, and a total body count of two).

Chula Vista · 03-30-2015, 10:59 AM

Great write up.

I gotta admit that I've analyzed The Shining to death. Have read countless essays on it. Studied every expert and novice synopsis I can find. I've even watched a version of the movie where it's played backwards and forwards at the same time superimposed on top of each other.

The Shining is Kubrick's greatest mind f*ck film of all time - by a very wide margin. At various times throughout the movie he is exploring one or more of the following topics:

1. A simple haunted house story.
2. Sexual molestation and abuse.
3. The genocide of the American Indians.
4. The Nazi's extermination of the Jews.
5. Apollo moon landing conspiracies.
6. Alcoholism.
7. Insanity.

There's tons to discuss with this one. Let's start with the hotel itself. Did you spot the impossible windows? There's two that stand out pretty blatantly. When Jack gets interviewed there's a window behind Ullman with the sun blazing through it. But if you watch carefully when he's giving them a tour of the place you'll notice that his office is in the middle of the hotel - behind that wall is actually a hallway.

Then there's the scene where Danny goes up to their apt. to get his truck and sees Jack sitting on the bed staring out a window. But then later we see Danny escaping from the bathroom window and realize that that window couldn't be there because the bathroom was the only room that was adjacent to an outside wall.

There's a ton of other stuff like this that Kubrick put in to sublimely mess with your head. Basically he created a hotel that didn't make any sense when viewed as a whole. More to follow.

**Frownland** · 03-30-2015, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Changing the title to Kubrick. Let's do The Shining next.

I'll be there with bells on!

I recommend just making it a Stanley Kubrick General Discussion thread.

03-28-2015, 07:36 PM	#74 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	One other note on 2001. Kubrick's ending is grand but leaves you wondering what happens after the Star Child arrives at earth. In the book Clarke explains that Star Child detonates all of the orbiting bombs. Earth detects his presence and gets the message to stop with all of the weapons and war posturing. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

03-28-2015, 09:41 PM	#77 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	Be sure to watch for the dual and sometimes triple narratives going on. That and impossible windows..... __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

03-29-2015, 05:02 PM	#78 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Ta da! If you don't feel like reading it (and I can't blame you, I typed way too much), basically I really enjoyed The Shining, and only have one complaint (which I talk about in the second to last paragraph, if you're curious). Also, I just went through and edited out a bunch of errors and misspelled names (man, I wonder how I got Doug Bradley out of Delbert Grady ). Alright, I watched the movie. It's pretty great! I love the imagery and symbolism, especially the color red (which pops up everywhere. In fact, one of the most tense and important scenes takes place in a room that is completely red). In a way, it's different from 2001 in that it's not nearly as ambiguous. Pretty early on, the movie lets you know that there are indeed supernatural forces at play, with two characters conversing using psychic powers. There are also parts in the movie that make it pretty clear that the ghosts are real, like when Delbert Grady helps Jack out of the pantry by unlocking it from the outside (something Jack probably couldn't have done on his own), and when Danny's encounter with the lady in the bathtub leaves him bruised. Also, Wendy sees two ghosts in a room near the end of the movie, despite neither of her family members having ever told her about the ghosts and visions. But at the same, there really is a lot left to interpretation. Lines like (and i'm paraphrasing, so sorry if I mistype the quotes) "I've always been here, just as you've always been here", "You're money isn't good here, Mr. Torrance", and "Well i'm the kinda guy who likes to know who's buying his drinks!" can mean anything that you're imagination can come up with, from Jack being a puppet of a specific evil force, or being possessed, or being forced into repeating the actions of the past, or maybe even just going insane. The movie gives multiple hints as to what exactly is going on, leading to different possibilities. The first is that the dark events that have happened in the past at the Overlook Hotel have created a sort of impression on the area, which causes the people who enter the hotel to live out the events (such as, an axe murder from years prior). Dick first hints at this when he's explaining to Danny why he's cautious of the hotel; to paraphrase, he says that certain events leave a residue, like burn marks on a piece of toast, and that stumbling unto that residue can be a very dangerous thing. In this scenario, the ghosts of the hotel aren't really evil, they're simply following their roles as they're stuck in the loop, becoming apart of the residue. Another possibility is that the ghosts of the hotel are evil, and the dark events of the past have caused many ghosts to be concentrated in that area (after all, it was built on a Native American burial ground during a time of bloodshed), possibly acting independently or under the orders of some more powerful entity. When you look at and listen to the ghosts, you immediately see that they're incredibly ominous, but also rigid and almost completely void of emotion (until Delbert Grady pops up near the very end, smiling, with blood on his face). Their demeanor makes them seem like they could just as easily be under orders as they could be acting on their own, or (as suggested earlier) stuck in a time loop. Their words also constantly make hints at each of those scenarios. You could also come to the conclusion that the hotel itself is an evil entity, and the events of the past have given out so much emotion and energy that it in some way gave the hotel sentience, which isn't too far fetched, since the movie plays the loud sound of a heartbeat during many key moments in the hotel, and one character (I think it was Dick) mentions something about how some places simply "have a life of their own". This makes a strange kind of sense, and it comes with the implication that the ghosts are victims of the hotel, trapped (as the ending suggests, with the picture) and forced to be it's pawns. Maybe the house needs them to continue living? Maybe it is simply acting in the same twisted kind of way that someone with cabin fever gets? After all, if you were alive and alone for many months out of the year, wouldn't you want some pawns to play with (calling back to that freaky "Play with us!" line)? And then when someone threatens you, by say trying to burn you down, or maybe bringing someone with strong psychic powers that can immediately tell that you're evil, wouldn't you "correct them"? My personal interpretation was that the events of the movie weren't so much about the ghosts, it was more about Jack. I don't know why, but I really got the feeling that he had "the shining" just as his son Danny did. Dick mentions that he and his grandmother both used to talk using only their minds, but also mentions that the shining is very rare, which makes it seem like it's quite possibly something that's hereditary, and passed down. He then says something else that is absolutely key in this scenario: that of all the people who have the gift, many of them will live out their lives without ever even knowing that they had it. The reason that Jack and Danny were so vulnerable to the hotel is that they both had a psychic connection to the events that had befallen it (after all, Dick mentions that people with the shining can see the past and the future). But that raises another question: if there's an alter-ego that reveals things to Danny, is there one that does the same thing to Jack? Dick doesn't seem to have one, but then again, he himself admits that the shining is something that is complicated; if some people don't even realize they have it, isn't it possible for others to have much more depth and complexity to their powers then others? Maybe the alter-ego is just another layer to the shining, one that Dick never reached. But why wouldn't he have reached it? Well, remember early in the movie, when Wendy mentions that Danny's alter ego appeared after Jack dislocated his shoulder? Maybe a traumatic event is what triggers someone's inner powers to the point of having an alter ego. Consider if Jack's shining was compressed and hidden in his psyche. Nothing ever stimulated his powers, and he never realized they even existed. However, they eventually awoke, possibly from when he injured his son (which he makes very clear was something that devastated him, especially since he seems very defensive over whether he meant to hurt him or not, making it seem like he in his anger did in fact mean to injure Danny). Or maybe it was when he came to the hotel, and the sheer amount of terrible events that had happened there overwhelmed his latent powers, causing them to awaken. Remember when Danny says that his alter ego shows him the future/past in his dreams? Doesn't Jack also see the future in one of his dreams, when he sees himself murdering his family with an axe? I think he wasn't seeing the future; he was seeing the past, his powers forcing him to live through the event through Delbert Grady's eyes. His sense of shame over what he had done to his son caused him to substitute Delbert's family for his own. Another thing to consider is that Danny's alter-ego pops up every now and then, talking with a different voice and personality than Danny. After arriving at the hotel, Jack occasionally turns into seemingly another person, being incredibly angry and violent at random intervals. The most important thing to consider is this: there is a point in the movie where Danny's alter-ego takes his body over completely, while a heart is beating in the background. At this point, Jack also seems to let his angry persona take him over completely. Is it possible that the heart beat wasn't the house coming to life, but Jack's buried alter-ego finally coming to life? Even though this is my interpretation, I still recognize that it's kind of full of holes. What exactly was going on when he was at the bar talking to the ghosts? How did Jack get out of the freezer if there really weren't any malevolent ghosts, only images of the past? How did Danny get bruised? One answer is that Jack's powers, combined with his tremendous guilt and the residue of past events left in the house, built the ghosts out of bricks from the past. Maybe he was in control the whole time (or, at least, his subconcious/alter ego was), and he built the scenario as a way of venting his uncontrollable frustrations. His conversations with the ghosts was really him having a conversation with himself, and his alter ego (which makes the whole "I like to know who's paying for my drinks" thing kind of dark, as he himself is the host). Maybe the shining allows thoughts and ideas to take form, which would explain how the pantry door opened, and how Danny was bruised (right, coincidentally enough, when Jack was dreaming about attacking and killing him. Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, was he dreaming when Danny came downstairs? I think I mixed up the scene with when he was dreaming earlier, and Wendy woke him up. Eh, it just means that I have to watch the movie again ). But maybe the best answer is that it's all of the above in a weird mix. Maybe the house had a life of it's own, there really were ghosts, and things were exasperated by Danny's (and possibly Jack's) powers. That would explain everything from the door, to the bruise, to the photograph at the end. Even for a pretty straightforward film, Kubrick always finds a way to let the audience come up with dozens of explanations for just what exactly was going on. And yes, there's also the possibility that none of the above explanations are correct, and that the whole family was simply affected by cabin fever, making the whole movie a jumble of the various perspectives of twisted minds. There is only one thing that I disliked about the movie; the soundtrack, and the musical ques. They really weren't horrible, and on the contrary were both creepy and influential, but they too often burst their way into very tense and delicate moments. I think the suspense caused by the dialogue was more than enough to freak people out, and the music just kind of blares up as if telling us when we should be scared (like a horror movie's version of a laugh track). If there's a version out there with no music (save for the phonograph music that plays when the ghosts are around), I'd love to see it, because I think it'd be much more intense and realistic. Anyway, that's my two cents on The Shining. There's probably someone out there with a much better explanation for the whole "Jack having the shining" theory, and others out there who have theories born from details that I never even noticed (Edit: I looked it up, and yeah, a whole bunch of people have already talked about Jack possibly shining, eventually passing it on to Danny). It really is a great movie, even (or maybe especially) for people who usually avoid the genre and prefer dramas. The amount of detail and imagery definitely warrant multiple viewings, and while the movie probably won't scare any horror movie fans into having nightmares, it'll definitely give you a sense of tense curiosity that almost forces you to watch intently until the end (which is strange, considering that it's movie with little action, little characterization, sparse dialogue, and a total body count of two). __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| ----------------------------- Last edited by Oriphiel; 03-29-2015 at 08:03 PM.

03-30-2015, 10:59 AM	#79 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	Great write up. I gotta admit that I've analyzed The Shining to death. Have read countless essays on it. Studied every expert and novice synopsis I can find. I've even watched a version of the movie where it's played backwards and forwards at the same time superimposed on top of each other. The Shining is Kubrick's greatest mind f*ck film of all time - by a very wide margin. At various times throughout the movie he is exploring one or more of the following topics: 1. A simple haunted house story. 2. Sexual molestation and abuse. 3. The genocide of the American Indians. 4. The Nazi's extermination of the Jews. 5. Apollo moon landing conspiracies. 6. Alcoholism. 7. Insanity. There's tons to discuss with this one. Let's start with the hotel itself. Did you spot the impossible windows? There's two that stand out pretty blatantly. When Jack gets interviewed there's a window behind Ullman with the sun blazing through it. But if you watch carefully when he's giving them a tour of the place you'll notice that his office is in the middle of the hotel - behind that wall is actually a hallway. Then there's the scene where Danny goes up to their apt. to get his truck and sees Jack sitting on the bed staring out a window. But then later we see Danny escaping from the bathroom window and realize that that window couldn't be there because the bathroom was the only room that was adjacent to an outside wall. There's a ton of other stuff like this that Kubrick put in to sublimely mess with your head. Basically he created a hotel that didn't make any sense when viewed as a whole. More to follow. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”