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04-27-2021, 01:33 PM | #371 (permalink) |
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It is whatabotism because saying capitalism bad as a response to the critique that the supposed successes of central planning are just theft and genocide is a deflection. It's irrelevant that britain starved people in india. You're just getting into the pissing match of who killed more which is once again a distraction from the actual point.
When you are trying to propose an alternative to an abusive system you really need to do better than "well you genocide too!" In doing so you've completely ceded the moral high ground you were using to attack the existing system in the first place. |
04-27-2021, 02:08 PM | #372 (permalink) | |
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It's not a whataboutism because, again, I'm not defending or arguing for the USSR. I'm pointing out that capitalism can kill millions in a short period of time the same as socialism, which you had stated wasn't the case. We can throw the Belgian Congo in as well.
It's at best fixing your statement and at worst trivia.
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04-27-2021, 10:04 PM | #373 (permalink) | |
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04-27-2021, 10:52 PM | #374 (permalink) | ||
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Again, I'm not a tankie who supports the USSR or China and I think people who do might as well be fascists but you said
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04-28-2021, 02:53 AM | #375 (permalink) |
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Let's cut to the chase... Are you saying you think soviet 5 year plan style industrialization is either preferable to capitalism or at the very least not less preferable? Because if not you are wasting your time here.
I'm trying to avoid the genocide olympics style pissing contest but iirc the single largest famine in human history that killed the most people in the shortest period of time happened in China during the great leap forward. But that's not even my point... My point isn't that they killed the most people, its that their economic alternative to capitalism merely relied on the already existing global capitalist markets to use exports that they robbed from their own population to raise money to buy industrial machinery that was also produced by capitalist countries! So they actually didn't alleviate any of the abuses you're pointing to under capitalism. The imperialism and exploitation continued. The only thing they added to the mix was a new way to kill millions of people. So yeah.... My point is and always has been that these policies are genocidal so pointing to them as a success story is implicitly endorsing genocide. Whether wolff claims to support the ussr or not. Like you, he says he doesn't. But then he says he isn't it impressive how fast they grew! That's the grift here and that's what I'm taking exception to. I actually think it's more logical to be a tankie and just say the means justified the ends than it is to keep deflecting with "but capitalism..." There is actually a semi decent argument to be made that without the 5 year plan the soviets would've been completely strategically ****ed. But again that requires biting the bullet on the genocide. |
04-28-2021, 06:35 AM | #376 (permalink) | ||
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04-28-2021, 11:21 AM | #377 (permalink) | |
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Protectionism is not a command economy. Restrictions on markets is not a command economy. You're conflating terms here and also probably overstating the efficacy of things like protectionism. There are pros and cons to that kind of policy like anything else and too much protectionism can stifle economic growth the same way that unmitigated free trade can lead to things like outsourcing and other externalities. |
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04-28-2021, 11:38 AM | #378 (permalink) |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWr4ue2lQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJYqSkLhOKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zooOchqDkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g9InbMwF0o 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
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04-28-2021, 07:23 PM | #379 (permalink) |
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It's really not about giving capitalism some sort of moral high ground it's just a question of efficacy. Industrialization always has growing pains associated with it it's just the sort of rapid industrialization the soviets did has a direct cost associated in terms of human lives. So if you don't think that cost is worthwhile then it's not really a good example of how command economies can grow faster. They can grow faster by incurring a cost that many would say isn't worth the growth. So it's a non starter.
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04-28-2021, 07:54 PM | #380 (permalink) | ||
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