What TV shows are people watching? (rock, fan, quote)

The Batlord · 06-15-2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

If this were a Star Trek thread I would hotly dispute that, but if anyone wants to discuss it in PM I'd be happy to.

All I'll say here is, you are of course both wrong.

**** it, it's not like there's anything particularly hot going on in this thread. Let's go.

Having said that, I haven't seen Deep Space Nine, Voyager, or Enterprise in years, so I can't really rate them, but I pretty much remember watching them all pretty religiously. None of the Star Trek series was bad. Though the fact that, in Enterprise, they pretty much skipped over the whole war with the Romulans (**** you spell check, it's a perfectly good word!) and had the Sulabons (Don't know if I spelled that right, don't care) be the main enemies was ****ing stupid. Or so I remember. I was in military school and unable to watch it for a large part of it's run. Which also made me miss Firefly the first time around too.

Trollheart · 06-15-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

**** it, it's not like there's anything particularly hot going on in this thread. Let's go.

Having said that, I haven't seen Deep Space Nine, Voyager, or Enterprise in years, so I can't really rate them, but I pretty much remember watching them all pretty religiously. None of the Star Trek series was bad. Though the fact that they pretty much skipped over the whole war with the Romulans (**** you spell check, it's a perfectly good word!) and had the Sulabons (Don't know if I spelled that right, don't care) be the main enemies was ****ing stupid. Or so I remember. I was in military school and unable to watch it for a large part of it's run. Which also made me miss Firefly the first time around too.

Right, well, if anyone takes offence/gets bored let me know, but since the gauntlet has been thrown down....

Without quoting a boring Wiki entry (which I would NEVER do!)

the basic thing is that NexGen, for all its great reception, was the first Trek series ever after the original, so everyone jumped on it. Some loved it, some hated it, some hated it then came to love it, few loved it then came to hate it. The first season was pretty poor, mostly due to stiff characters, little development and recycled TOS (The Original Series: Kirk, Spock, that lot) episodes, often with hardly any original writing at all. Plus original Trek creator Gene Roddenberry maintained a vice-like grip over the storylines.

The seasons improved after his stepping back from the executive producer role, and later his passing, and the series introduced some of the best ever characters, with Data's character development being particularly well handled, the greatest ever Star Trek villains, the BORG being introduced, the superb episodes like "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Cause and effect", "Sins of the father" and of course "Best of both worlds", the BORG, Wesley getting kicked off the series, Bev coming back, the BORG, Picard getting his end away, Riker meeting his double (setting up some interesting episodes later, in other series), Data's cat turning from male to female without any explanation and giving birth, silly episodes like "Rascals", "A fistful of Datas", "Masks", the appearance of Q, the BORG, the Ferengi, the return of Kah'less, the possibility hinted at of Troi and Worf getting together, oh yes, and the BORG.

DS9 was the first Trek series to "go dark", introducing more adult themes, wars, betrayals, conspiracies, and characters who firmly straddled the line between dark and light, like Garak and Gul Ducat. Decisions weren't as clear cut or easy in DS9, and quite often the "good guys" did bad things, all in the name of the Federation. It was also the first series to properly challenge the holier-than-thou attitude of said Federation, and introduce a "black ops" element within the organisation. Finally, DS9 was more arc-driven than any of the others, with episodes often/usually leading into others, and huge plot strands being expanded and developed over often months or years.

Voyager was basically a soap opera in space, with a few good episodes but a major drawback in that no matter how bad the ship got hit, it was always back to top condition next episode. Decisions taken in one ep rarely if ever had consequences in future ones, and can I just say FAIR HAVEN!!!??? Say no more, for those who know.

Enterprise I quickly lost interest in so I can't talk authoritatively about it, but I did feel the characters were less engaging, the stories quite weak and I thought Scott Bakula made a poor and not believable captain. I even preferred Janeway to him, that's how little I rate him.

Well, my phasers and photon torpedo banks are fully charged, and power has been routed to the shields, so let's have ya!

The Batlord · 06-16-2012, 10:20 AM

I pretty much agree with everything you've said, and it's been too long and I watched so little of Enterprise that I can't really argue with you on that, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Voyager was basically a soap opera in space,

What's wrong with that? If you can get past the cheese factor, soap operas are quite entertaining.

Quote:

with a few good episodes but a major drawback in that no matter how bad the ship got hit, it was always back to top condition next episode. Decisions taken in one ep rarely if ever had consequences in future ones,

You mean, like the original series and Next Generation?

Quote:

and can I just say FAIR HAVEN!!!??? Say no more, for those who know.

Doesn't ring a bell, so I'll just end with this to show Voyager's quality...

...and you've just been served.

Trollheart · 06-18-2012, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

What's wrong with that? If you can get past the cheese factor, soap operas are quite entertaining.

You mean, like the original series and Next Generation?

Doesn't ring a bell, so I'll just end with this to show Voyager's quality...

...and you've just been served.

1. Soap operas are fine if you like them (I don't) but I don't expect my favourite franchise (well, second favourite: Babylon 5 will always be my first love!) to go in that direction. Space opera? Dear God!

2. TOS, sure, nothing followed on, but then times and TV were different them, and Roddenberry was fighting against some pretty entrenched and, by today's standards, outdated ideas about what made good TV. As for NG, well firstly the ship usually didn't get hit that much, but if it did there were always the starbases where it could get fixed up --- Voyager being in the Delta Quadrant and far from same nevertheless seemed shiny new every episode, no matter the pummelling it had taken the previous week.

As for consequences, well certainly when Picard was taken by the Borg this came back to haunt him for years afterwards, Data's evil brother cropped up from time to time, Riker's on/off romance with Troi kept coming up, there were repercussions to Yar's death... need I go on? NextGen was more episodic than DS9, but at least there was a basic continuing storyline and previous occurrences would be referred back to and often influence future eps. Never happened in Voyager. Janeway made and broke alliances like there was no tomorrow, and other than "Dark horizon", there seemed to be no comeback. Hell, she "murdered" Tuvix and did anyone care? I mean, later? What about the Maquis? They just all accepted Starfleet's rules and became good officers? Yeah...

3. Fair bleedin' Haven was their holodeck idea of what a "typical Irish town" should be. Really bugged the hell out of me, as it wasn't even played for laughs. (Your pic didn't work by the way, not sure why)

**Janszoon** · 06-18-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Voyager was basically a soap opera in space, with a few good episodes but a major drawback in that no matter how bad the ship got hit, it was always back to top condition next episode. Decisions taken in one ep rarely if ever had consequences in future ones, and can I just say FAIR HAVEN!!!??? Say no more, for those who know.

I would say the fact that Voyager was more episodic makes it less like a soap opera than Deep Space Nine actually.

Trollheart · 06-19-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I would say the fact that Voyager was more episodic makes it less like a soap opera than Deep Space Nine actually.

Jansz, it's not just that it was mostly standalone episodes that make it the soap opera of Star Trek, it's the overinterest in people's relationships in favour of proper sci-fi storylines. They spent more time worrying about how Seven would relate to the Doctor (two of the only good characters in the show imo and both wasted, again imo) than how paper-thin the plots in what they laughingly termed "stories" were, how they could be resolved and how they might have an effect on future storylines.

I mean, at one stage they lost Harry Kim in some accident. Huge cheers went up, but then they popped into some alternate universe and half-inched their Harry! Boo! Also very lazy and sloppy story-telling. The idea of all the Maquis just toeing the Starfleet line cos Janeway said so was laughable: the Maquis had no love for Starfleet (seeing as how they were always being hunted down by them, on behalf of a race who became one of both's biggest enemies, the Cardassians), not to mention the fact that Voyager's original mission had been to capture the leaders of the Maquis (Chakotay/Torres) with Tuvok a spy in their midst. They should have torn the ship apart, treated it as a basic prison ship from which they were never likely to escape! All this should have been explored, at least over a few episodes, with tensions arising as maybe some Maquis tried to take over Voyager. But no, it was all resolved in the very first episode. Pathetic.

I could go on. I may, if you're unlucky, but I'm just pointing out that the episodic nature of Voyager wasn't the only reason it was seen as a soap in space. And if DS9 was a soap, it was the biggest, baddest, most un-PC soap in the history of soaps!

**Janszoon** · 06-19-2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Jansz, it's not just that it was mostly standalone episodes that make it the soap opera of Star Trek, it's the overinterest in people's relationships in favour of proper sci-fi storylines. They spent more time worrying about how Seven would relate to the Doctor (two of the only good characters in the show imo and both wasted, again imo) than how paper-thin the plots in what they laughingly termed "stories" were, how they could be resolved and how they might have an effect on future storylines.

I mean, at one stage they lost Harry Kim in some accident. Huge cheers went up, but then they popped into some alternate universe and half-inched their Harry! Boo! Also very lazy and sloppy story-telling. The idea of all the Maquis just toeing the Starfleet line cos Janeway said so was laughable: the Maquis had no love for Starfleet (seeing as how they were always being hunted down by them, on behalf of a race who became one of both's biggest enemies, the Cardassians), not to mention the fact that Voyager's original mission had been to capture the leaders of the Maquis (Chakotay/Torres) with Tuvok a spy in their midst. They should have torn the ship apart, treated it as a basic prison ship from which they were never likely to escape! All this should have been explored, at least over a few episodes, with tensions arising as maybe some Maquis tried to take over Voyager. But no, it was all resolved in the very first episode. Pathetic.

I could go on. I may, if you're unlucky, but I'm just pointing out that the episodic nature of Voyager wasn't the only reason it was seen as a soap in space. And if DS9 was a soap, it was the biggest, baddest, most un-PC soap in the history of soaps!

Hey, I'm not denying Voyager had its fair share of cheese, every Star Trek show has been served with with a sizable slice of cheese. I'm just saying it's the show I enjoy the most after TNG. It featured one of my absolute favorite Star Trek characters (The Doctor), was an overall fun show to watch, and even had several episodes I'd describe as "great". I'm glad they didn't do much with the Maquis angle (though they actually did a lot more with it than you imply) because, frankly, Star Trek's propensity toward "space politics" bores the crap out of me. That's one of the reasons I've never really gotten into DS9 actually. I used to watch it here and there during its original run and I found the heavy emphasis on space politics, space religion, and long-winded (read: soap opera-esque

) story lines to be kind of tedious. Don't get me wrong, I'm still planning on trying to work my way through DS9 when I'm done with Voyager, but there's definitely a reason I've watched them in that order.

Trollheart · 06-19-2012, 07:17 PM

Yeah, that will definitely be a problem. DS9 is dark, politically and religiously heavy and not for the casual watcher (though the first two seasons, meh, you could get through it without TOO much trouble: once season three kicks off though you're drawn into a story arc that more or less runs throughout the rest of the series, and you can be lost if you miss out episodes) --- on a side note to that, though I love it and it's my alltime favourite show ever, if you're setup that way then avoid Babylon 5 too, as it won't be to your tastes.

But you should watch it. Really, what a show.

DS9 is worth the effort: darkest and most mature and best written of all the Trek franchise, accepted fact. Sort of. With probably the coolest captain since Picard. Ah, scratch that: coolest captain ever.

**Janszoon** · 06-19-2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah, that will definitely be a problem. DS9 is dark, politically and religiously heavy and not for the casual watcher (though the first two seasons, meh, you could get through it without TOO much trouble: once season three kicks off though you're drawn into a story arc that more or less runs throughout the rest of the series, and you can be lost if you miss out episodes) --- on a side note to that, though I love it and it's my alltime favourite show ever, if you're setup that way then avoid Babylon 5 too, as it won't be to your tastes.

But you should watch it. Really, what a show.

DS9 is worth the effort: darkest and most mature and best written of all the Trek franchise, accepted fact. Sort of. With probably the coolest captain since Picard. Ah, scratch that: coolest captain ever.

Dark is absolutely fine with me. The problem is that space politics and space religion make it feel goofy to me instead of dark. I've only made it partway through season 1 of Babylon 5 for similar reasons.

06-19-2012, 07:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	Yeah, that will definitely be a problem. DS9 is dark, politically and religiously heavy and not for the casual watcher (though the first two seasons, meh, you could get through it without TOO much trouble: once season three kicks off though you're drawn into a story arc that more or less runs throughout the rest of the series, and you can be lost if you miss out episodes) --- on a side note to that, though I love it and it's my alltime favourite show ever, if you're setup that way then avoid Babylon 5 too, as it won't be to your tastes. But you should watch it. Really, what a show. DS9 is worth the effort: darkest and most mature and best written of all the Trek franchise, accepted fact. Sort of. With probably the coolest captain since Picard. Ah, scratch that: coolest captain ever. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018