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I think everybody who has learned about Jefferson beyond high school-level reading knows that. I can't think of any founder who isn't at least a little bit, really.

If you like Gordon Wood and Revolutionary stuff (or care somewhat?) then you might also like The Radicalism of the American Revolution

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TheBig3

Nothing. I thought about you and books and thought of it.

Long story short, I think it takes something as horseblind as religion and gives it a new vision. In a blurb, this is what the Bible would read like if religion had fan fiction. Its just a mind-**** of a reality shakeup.

Well no. If you're a liberal **** who thinks anyone who doesn't measure up to modern day moral standards, then I wasn't talking to those people. What I mean is, for those of us who can say "alright well Slavery was an abhorrent institution, but we can't reasonably hold the candle of 21st century morality to a guy living in the 1700's" then this book shows Jefferson as something of a douche.

Not because of things we think are unacceptable today, but because he abandoned Reason in the final stages of his life because his shot-sighted flaws from the jump fell through.

I'll grant you that I didn't spell out why I thought he was a douche. But if you're going to go ape-wild on people then for what we do now, you're going to blind yourself to quite a few historical positions.

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Engine

I'm going to break up your post to respond. I know some people don't like that (the post fragmenting responses) but you've got a couple interesting points / allegations in there that I want to address and this stuff is highly interesting to me:

Well, yes, actually. I am not one of 'those people' in fact, if anything, I am a relativist **** who thinks way beyond that

I know that we can't judge Americans' perception of race in the 18th century as basely as that. Just FYI that's not where I'm coming from at all. I could make a list of relativist-approved douche-like behaviors of Jefferson but that would be kinda off topic until I understand what you mean exactly.

I totaly agree but you still haven't told me anything so I'm not sure what we agree on. What flaws? I can think of a few and he's in my top 2 fave founding fathers.

No you didn't at all and I haven't read the book

I absolutely won't. Enlighten me. What did the book tell you about Jefferson? *note: I'm seriously interested. Depending on your response I may read the book.

On topic: I'm still reading Infinite Jest and probably won't be done until like November but I have a feeling that I'll be craving some good ol' fashioned US History at that point. Maybe I'll read Wood's book - that's why I bothered with this.

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TheBig3

I do hate when people break up posts because it has only ever ended up in snarky retorts that come down to responses like...

"yeah that's really intelligent"

We're a long way off from that, but I'm still weary of engaging in debates like that.

Jefferson is a prick because he sold out his own ideals. When you double back on your beliefs, it means you've either not thought long enough, or you're taking your football and going home.

His complete 180 in his later years on most of his positions, because of a realization that he'd miscalculated humanity and their trajectory toward "enlightenment", smacks of either the death grip of senior insanity or that in the face of the honesty of people, he realized that we'd never be a nation of dandy fops drinking tea and bantering about Adam Smith.

When people attack the society and the actions of a person some 200 years ago, I find it a little ridiculous, but I think that philosophic visions are always up for discussion. Jefferson was plenty of things: American Sphinx, Perennial Optimist, Consummate Virginian...but he was also someone I think who gave up on his beliefs because he didn't like the ignorant masses and their relation to him.

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LoathsomePete

Cop: A True Story - Sgt. Michael L. Middleton

Former Sargent for the LAPD, it chronicles the lives of radio car officers (the ones you see the most) from about the late '60's to his retirement in 1988. It's a revised edition so I'm sure there will be some more updated stories and information, because a lot has changed in the last 22 years.

It forms an interesting contrast to my other book, Homicide: Life on the Killing Streets, which is about the Homicide Department in Baltimore in the late '80's. The uniform officers (officers in Uniform and radio cars) are just called "Uniforms" and aren't treated with much respect or expected to be competent. It's a little bit of an arrogant and elitist idea presented, but the radio car patrol officers are the front line soldiers, and considering EVERYONE who wants to be out in the field doing police work has to do patrol, I figured this would be a good book for me.

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TheBig3

I saw your response and thought "oh Janszoon! I bet he'll have something fairly poignant to say."

I got Rick Rolled.

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Janszoon

Well it's sort of poignant in a snarky kind of way.

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TheBig3

No. No it wasn't.

You reading anything, Spoonman?

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Janszoon

Not really. Unless you count National Geographic. I haven't felt like the circumstances have been right to start a book lately.

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

TheBig3

I have a suggestion.



Honestly though, kinda knowing you just a smidge, try

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