Cultural appropriation

TheBig3 · 04-28-2021, 11:05 AM

One person's opinion here, but the issue isn't "being influenced by", it's "stealing for personal gain."

Justin Beiber - especially with Peaches - sounds like he just stole your stuff and is selling it across from your house. He's in no movement associated with any sound like that. He seems to show up and do whatever the Spotify data tells him is most profitable. Elvis always gets hit with the "White guy stealing black music" and I think that's about right. Conversely, as much as I don't like the Beatles I do feel like they enjoyed the music and added their own thing to it.

It's more complicated with things like food, IMO, because there's a lot less personal profit associated with that, but I'm not a scholar on this issue. I just pay attention and read things now and again.

Edit: I forgot to mention, there's no one worse about this than Justin Timberlake. At least Bieber just rips other people off. Timberlake finds a way to add nothing and still water it down somehow.

TheBig3 · 04-28-2021, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Elvis is more like an Eminem

had incredible respect for black culture and grew up around it...

That's probably more apt. Let's go with that.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8019706.html

~~jwb~~ · 04-29-2021, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Elvis is more like an Eminem

had incredible respect for black culture and grew up around it...

Difference being eminem wasn't credited with inventing hip hop lol.

Not really Elvis' fault necessarily... Just saying.

YorkeDaddy · 04-28-2021, 11:53 AM

^ the hell are you on about man, Bieber has been doing like R&B Pop since the beginning, that’s his style and he does it well. People are allowed to experiment with how they dress and physically appear without coming under obnoxious keyboard warrior scrutiny, this thread is ****ing dumb

LiftingShadowsOffADream · 04-28-2021, 11:28 PM

Yeah if Justin Bieber is the guy being used to begin a 'social conversation' then I think your question is answered before you even have to ask it.

Guybrush · 04-29-2021, 04:09 PM

I think cultures are always changing and now, in many cases, rapidly merging. Sometimes change hurts. Generally speaking, I think mimicry comes from a place of love. Beastie Boys came from hardcore, but they fell harder in love with hip-hop and so they mostly wanted to do that instead.

Maybe there's bad appropriation and good appropriation. In my example above, they did kinda fake it until they could make it, but then they became a genuine part of it and added something new to it. They helped take hip-hop to new places and to a wider audience. Maybe that can be said to be good appropriation.

If Bieber or Timberlake or whatever makes a one-song foray into a genre because a producer wants that particular sound for that song, then arguably that's not quite as good.

Still, if a culture - music or otherwise - gets popular, it's gonna reach a new audience and some of them are gonna love it and be inspired. Maybe that inspired person is a teenager in a band or Timberlake's producer. In a way it's a sign of cultural health. It can seem really dumb then when a newcomer who was never part of the culture suddenly sells more than old-timers in that genre. I agree that it's obnoxious, but I also find it a little hard to blame artists or music producers for aiming for success. Arguably, the disappointment should lie with the masses who buy the appropriated culture and make it successful. Best case scenario, it brings in a new audience also for the old-timers.

Anyways, I do find it kind of inevitable. For me as someone who doesn't feel particularly victimized by cultural appropriation, I prefer to just laugh at it. However, even if I can't quite relate, I do respect that some people genuinely find it problematic and wouldn't really argue against anyone making that claim.

Lucem Ferre · 04-30-2021, 12:52 AM

Cultural appropriation is when you take from a culture with no understanding or respect for said culture. Like rock being seen as "white" music despite it coming from black culture. White people used Elvis so they could listen to rock music without having to deal with black people. Eminem also gets used that way to an extent but no where near as extreme because Eminem consistently works with black people.

When it comes to dreadlocks and braids it's really stupid because they are culturally ubiquitous and nobody really knows where exactly the hair styles originated from because they predate ancient culture and go well into prehistoric times.

With Justin Bieber I can't really say he doesn't respect black culture because I don't know. I do know that his career came from an Usher endorsement and he's consistently been a huge piece of black culture his whole career. Looking into it he seems very self aware of how he's been influenced by and benefited off of black culture and is fairly vocal about racial justice so he does seem to respect the culture.

Lucem Ferre · 04-30-2021, 12:58 AM

Also, notice how the girl writing the article is white.

Guybrush · 04-30-2021, 01:33 AM

Lucern, I'd comment again that while purely cynical cultural appropriation exists, it is probably rare. If Bieber doesn't love the culture he copies, his producer, the songwriter or someone else probably does. People want to create something they actually like. Work and life in general is just more pleasant that way.

It's also kinda interesting to see perspectives from americans as americans are very focused on race, skin colour, ethnicity. Because of the US history, I get why that is. I would say that culture shouldn't be intrinsically tied to skin tone. I really like meme theory to explain the evolution of things like language, culture, religion. For cultural memes spreading in the mindscape, the colour of someone's skin doesn't really have to be a barrier to its spread just like it doesn't have to be a barrier to the spread of religions or languages. The idea that one could or should contain a culture to a relative small but deserving minority based on skin tone or whatever is kinda futile. It would be like stemming the ocean tide. It's just gonna keep coming and fighting it will only cause frustration.

You might as well look more positively on it. We're becoming more culturally homogenic, even norwegians and americans. But perhaps it ain't all bad as long as we bring the best parts of our cultures into the mix and leave out the worst.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 04-30-2021, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

I never really understood what the problem with cultural appropriation was

There isn't one.

04-28-2021, 11:05 AM	#1 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,246	One person's opinion here, but the issue isn't "being influenced by", it's "stealing for personal gain." Justin Beiber - especially with Peaches - sounds like he just stole your stuff and is selling it across from your house. He's in no movement associated with any sound like that. He seems to show up and do whatever the Spotify data tells him is most profitable. Elvis always gets hit with the "White guy stealing black music" and I think that's about right. Conversely, as much as I don't like the Beatles I do feel like they enjoyed the music and added their own thing to it. It's more complicated with things like food, IMO, because there's a lot less personal profit associated with that, but I'm not a scholar on this issue. I just pay attention and read things now and again. Edit: I forgot to mention, there's no one worse about this than Justin Timberlake. At least Bieber just rips other people off. Timberlake finds a way to add nothing and still water it down somehow. __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-29-2021, 04:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I think cultures are always changing and now, in many cases, rapidly merging. Sometimes change hurts. Generally speaking, I think mimicry comes from a place of love. Beastie Boys came from hardcore, but they fell harder in love with hip-hop and so they mostly wanted to do that instead. Maybe there's bad appropriation and good appropriation. In my example above, they did kinda fake it until they could make it, but then they became a genuine part of it and added something new to it. They helped take hip-hop to new places and to a wider audience. Maybe that can be said to be good appropriation. If Bieber or Timberlake or whatever makes a one-song foray into a genre because a producer wants that particular sound for that song, then arguably that's not quite as good. Still, if a culture - music or otherwise - gets popular, it's gonna reach a new audience and some of them are gonna love it and be inspired. Maybe that inspired person is a teenager in a band or Timberlake's producer. In a way it's a sign of cultural health. It can seem really dumb then when a newcomer who was never part of the culture suddenly sells more than old-timers in that genre. I agree that it's obnoxious, but I also find it a little hard to blame artists or music producers for aiming for success. Arguably, the disappointment should lie with the masses who buy the appropriated culture and make it successful. Best case scenario, it brings in a new audience also for the old-timers. Anyways, I do find it kind of inevitable. For me as someone who doesn't feel particularly victimized by cultural appropriation, I prefer to just laugh at it. However, even if I can't quite relate, I do respect that some people genuinely find it problematic and wouldn't really argue against anyone making that claim. __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 04-29-2021 at 04:19 PM.

04-30-2021, 01:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Lucern, I'd comment again that while purely cynical cultural appropriation exists, it is probably rare. If Bieber doesn't love the culture he copies, his producer, the songwriter or someone else probably does. People want to create something they actually like. Work and life in general is just more pleasant that way. It's also kinda interesting to see perspectives from americans as americans are very focused on race, skin colour, ethnicity. Because of the US history, I get why that is. I would say that culture shouldn't be intrinsically tied to skin tone. I really like meme theory to explain the evolution of things like language, culture, religion. For cultural memes spreading in the mindscape, the colour of someone's skin doesn't really have to be a barrier to its spread just like it doesn't have to be a barrier to the spread of religions or languages. The idea that one could or should contain a culture to a relative small but deserving minority based on skin tone or whatever is kinda futile. It would be like stemming the ocean tide. It's just gonna keep coming and fighting it will only cause frustration. You might as well look more positively on it. We're becoming more culturally homogenic, even norwegians and americans. But perhaps it ain't all bad as long as we bring the best parts of our cultures into the mix and leave out the worst. __________________ Something Completely Different

04-28-2021, 11:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
LiftingShadowsOffADream Groupie Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 15	Yeah if Justin Bieber is the guy being used to begin a 'social conversation' then I think your question is answered before you even have to ask it.