The Thread of Cancellation

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by jadis

That it very well may be, not for me to say.




I agree that the benefits are usually nonexistent, but I also don't think that the calculus of costs and benefits in such cases is a rational one. Getting to speak your truth about abusers, having your truth heard is as powerful a drug as I dunno, the desire for fame and fortune or whatever else people want nowadays. Once you place yourself in the position of a victim, the words just start flowing out of your mouth.

Um dude if you think telling the world about abuse is a powerful feeling then I have some shocking news for you

(there's always exceptions of course, if you or a loved one has a history of abuse I don't want to speak for you)

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jadis

That it very well may be, not for me to say.




I agree that the benefits are usually nonexistent, but I also don't think that the calculus of costs and benefits in such cases is a rational one. Getting to speak your truth about abusers, having your truth heard is as powerful a drug as I dunno, the desire for fame and fortune or whatever else people want nowadays. Once you place yourself in the position of a victim, the words just start flowing out of your mouth.

You're just making **** up now.

[jadis]

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

(there's always exceptions of course, if you or a loved one has a history of abuse I don't want to speak for you)

No, nothing like that, I'm just lazily paraphrasing one French pedophile without any of the historical exposition or rhetorical buildup and flair that make his arguments so compelling.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't something to it.

The act of truth-telling is the most powerful thing there is, it's the stuff people die for (so not all fun - still powerful). And a major, maybe the major site of truth in the world we live in happens to be sexuality. To take one example, THE most momentous event in the lives of many young people today is posting a confession-style monologue about discovering the truth about your innermost gender to their instagram or twitter, about how deep inside you're they/them. The details vary but the reality is that you're compelled - by the ambient voice of our culture - to spill your guts out about your sexuality these days.

I can't see how the way you make sense of and narrativize your sexual experiences would be free of those pressures.

Which is not to say that most or even many of those making meetoo claims are lying or significantly misrepresenting what went on. Or that speaking out about sexual abuse, real or imaginary, is "rewarding". But there are more dynamics at play than predatory guys who prey on their victims.

[Marie Monday]

I agree with that last part. I just really doubt whether in most cases the other things at play are significant compared to the predatory guy part, at least not enough to call it a power dynamic in the woman's favour

[Anteater]

Every so often you do see higher profile accusers getting shown up as liars (like those women that Michael Avenatti coached and brought up during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, for example), but in general I'd say most women don't believe the attention they're going to get for calling someone out is worth the risk. They're generally more credible than the people they are accusing.

[Frownland]

"I couldn't say no to raping her because I knew how she would exploit the situation to fulfill her rampant desire for moral integrity."

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jadis

No, nothing like that, I'm just lazily paraphrasing one French pedophile without any of the historical exposition or rhetorical buildup and flair that make his arguments so compelling.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't something to it.

The act of truth-telling is the most powerful thing there is, it's the stuff people die for (so not all fun - still powerful). And a major, maybe the major site of truth in the world we live in happens to be sexuality. To take one example, THE most momentous event in the lives of many young people today is posting a confession-style monologue about discovering the truth about your innermost gender to their instagram or twitter, about how deep inside you're they/them. The details vary but the reality is that you're compelled - by the ambient voice of our culture - to spill your guts out about your sexuality these days.

I can't see how the way you make sense of and narrativize your sexual experiences would be free of those pressures.

Which is not to say that most or even many of those making meetoo claims are lying or significantly misrepresenting what went on. Or that speaking out about sexual abuse, real or imaginary, is "rewarding". But there are more dynamics at play than predatory guys who prey on their victims.

Given the statistics this amounts to a smokescreen for abusers though. It's not helpful and however illuminating it might be is squandered when historically speaking there's always a market for a smokescreen for abusers.

Originally Posted by elphenor

so he's gotta get a McDonald's job now or what

That's between him and God. Maybe next time don't pressure women for obviously creepy sexual favors whose careers depend on your good will.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

If he still wants to use his status over women he employs to intimidate women into letting him do that **** then yes. As far as I've seen he's trying to pretend like nothing happened, which does not speak to him changing anything about his behaviour or perspective. People who abuse power dynamics aren't victims.

dunno i feel like with all the heat and attention he got from it he'd be really stupid to try that **** again lol. Part of what makes people do **** like that is the assumption that they can get away with it..

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

dunno i feel like with all the heat and attention he got from it he'd be really stupid to try that **** again lol. Part of what makes people do **** like that is the assumption that they can get away with it..

All of what makes them do **** like that is that they want to push personal boundaries to prove that they can. Maybe if he hadn't had that bit in his show where he's calling a woman a **** for talking during his set I wouldn't be so unwilling to give him a second chance. Maybe if his comeback had included addressing the issue I'd be willing to believe he'd given some thought to his behavior.

And maybe if he'd done that with his whole shtick being that he's a schlubby guy who's honest about how schlubby he is I wouldn't be so disinterested in more of his standup about how honest he is about being schlubby. Cause now I'm just gonna be thinking what a dishonest pussy he is.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

All of what makes them do **** like that is that they want to push personal boundaries to prove that they can.

i think that the idea you can get away with it definitely is part of it... That's part of why the me too movement manifested imo is cause there was a long standing culture of looking the other way..

Maybe if he hadn't had that bit in his show where he's calling a woman a **** for talking during his set I wouldn't be so unwilling to give him a second chance.

talking during a comedians set is disrespectful enough that i think if they call you a **** that's fair game.. in fact you probably are a ****

Maybe if his comeback had included addressing the issue I'd be willing to believe he'd given some thought to his behavior.

And maybe if he'd done that with his whole shtick being that he's a schlubby guy who's honest about how schlubby he is I wouldn't be so disinterested in more of his standup about how honest he is about being schlubby. Cause now I'm just gonna be thinking what a dishonest pussy he is.

You don't have to be a fan to not necessarily think he needs to stay cancelled