The Jamal Khashoggi case
 

It has been mentioned here already but considering that it is one of the biggest ongoing stories of this year, it could be useful to have a separate thread dedicated to it.

I myself am totally fascinated by all of this. Not so much because of what [probably] happened, as grizzly as it apparently was, since horrible things happen to people all the time, but just by the sheer arrogance of how it happened.

Saudi Arabia, because the rest of the world led it to believe this, was under the impression that they could literally do whatever they wanted, with impunity, including kidnapping and murdering a prominent critic in their own embassy [supposedly yeah].

But what is more surprising to me right now is that the collective powers that be haven't managed to effectively cover up this situation, which is what I presume happens normally in cases like this.

There is so much at stake here, and the situation is so complicated, it's difficult to unravel:

1) Why is Turkey allowing the details from the investigation to surface? Isn't it in their interest to continue shmoozing with the Saudis? They don't seem clear about it themselves, first they blow up the story, now they seem to be much more reticent.

2) If the full details of what happened do come out, and the evidence points to Riyadh, is the US (and Europe) willing to sacrifice all of those lucrative oil and weapons deals for one man?

3) Why this man? As was correctly pointed out by the Guardian, Saudi Arabia has done many terrible things in the past few decades, just recently they blew up a truck load of children in Yemen and are driving more than 15 million people to the brink of starvation, what's different now?

4) If the Saudis wanted this man dead, why on earth wait for him to come to the embassy where it's much harder to cover up your tracks? Why not just murder him in his house, on his way to somewhere, what was the reason? Sloppiness or a message (that ended up backfiring)?

Bonus question: Will there ever be a point in our lives when Saudi Arabia is going to fall out of favor of the West and be treated in the same way as Iran and North Korea (as they rightfully should)?

I’ve been on vacation and not following news so I just got caught up on this. Very disturbing stuff, though, sadly, not surprising.

The Turks don't like the Saudis, who are in bed with Zionist Israel, The Crown and capitalist America. Also, Turkey doesn't have to rely on the Saudis for their oil, they get it from Syria and Iraq. Turkey isn't pussy-whipped.

Nope. They will play lip service by throwing softball sanctions at Saudi Arabia, which will be offset by backdoor cash to make up for it.

I'm not sure of the specifics, but he was outspoken against the House of Saud, and they got uber butt-hurt about it.

I'm guessing that he knew that he was targeted and so did others, so any mysterious death would automatically be deemed foul play. The Saudis probably thought that they could cover it up and get away with it.

Not in our lifetime. It's one big club [The Saudis, Bushes, Israel, The Crown] and we're not in it.

If they have their backs against their wall, the Saudis will tell that some of their operatives got a bit overzealous and did it out of their own initiative, without the rulers' knowledge. Then there'll be some kind of show trial for a few of them, the west will grumble a bit and then continue sucking the Saudis' dick like good girl. Case closed.

That’s already happening. My country’s strongman leader appears to be first in line to perform fellatio.

Difficult to argue at this point since their official stance is that Khashoggi left the embassy and disappeared after that. If the ambassador was aware of what was happening, he could and should have reported it. The more they deny any knowledge of what happened, the deeper they get. The more time passes, the more difficult it is to claim the Royal family was not involved.

Another factor I forgot to mention was that, considering the amount of detail that's emerging, it's clear the Embassy was wiretapped. So information is leaking but Turkey can't outright disclose it since that would mean admitting wiretapping a foreign embassy.

The plot couldn't get much thicker.

Trump already put his social media tag on this: Rogue Killers

Here’s what you need to know:

*Saudi Arabia will continue to fuel America
*The relationship will not change
*The American people will forget shortly
*Saudi royalty will continue to do as they please
*Saudi Arabia will continue to be one of the most oppressive societies in the world
*America will continue to be the greediest country in the world
*The truth will continue to be irrelevant


You can learn the details or not. Demand justice or not. Protest or not. Vote or not. Nothing you do is going to matter.

Accuse me of acting like an angst-ridden teenager all you want. The truth remains that it doesn’t matter if you care about this.

I think you enjoy being dense.

Isn't there something about a representative democracy, especially the american one, where the constituents can get in touch with their representatives or civil rights pressure groups which could influence members of the parliament/congress to re-evaluate the status-quo? Lindsey Graham for example isn't toeing the line. Why not others? :occasional optimist:

I think you still agree with that analysis.

America isn't going to do anything to threaten Saudi oil exports. Our economy has already been brought low in the 70s by oil and whenever oil prices go up the country tenses up for good reason. The politicians know this, the American people know this, and both know that neither have the will to rock the boat for the sake of people on the other side of the planet when it will only end up in economic ****ery. Nothing will ever change until we lose our dependency on oil and at this point there's about a roughly equal amount of political will for that too.

And Saudi Arabia acting as a deterrent to Iran is also no small consideration for us.

No.

Let’s see how it turns out. We can humpty bump this thread next year.

What's the problem with Iran? I mean, as opposed to Saudi.

The question isn't what's the problem with Iran it's whether our government likes Iran. They don't. Iran has some problem with us over CIA ****ery or some such whatever I guess they're just whiny bitches. Saudi Arabia is a rival to Iran for influence in the Middle East and our leaders rather like that. Without Israel and the Saudis we really wouldn't have that much in the way of friends in the region if you can believe that so we're not about to throw that away over something like freedom of the press.

Iran occasionally puts their beliefs in front of business. Saudi Arabia doesn’t play that.

The arms deal Trump negotiated with SA immediately after taking office is all about ****ing with Iran. Iran was making healthy strides against xenophobia but we don’t care.

As Trump cozies up to Saudi Arabia, the rule of law collapses further

Great read!

^ Except for the bit in bold I agree with OH's analysis, esp that the relationship between S Arabia and the West isn't going to change much any time soon. For a bit of perspective, here's the Queen being chummy with the Saudi's in the 1980s, even though their human rights record was just as bad, and just as well-known:-

https://www.thenational.ae/image/pol...136&$w=ec52ab9

At least with the Queen, she has perfected the art of acting politely and being disdainful at the same time, unlike Laughing Boy Pompeo who bounces around like a kid who's been allowed into the clown's house.

Other differences this time round:-
* Saudis have breached the accepted etiquette about what countries can do in their embassies. All embassies on foreign soil are there as a gesture of international goodwill: if I was Turkey, I'd close down the Saudi embassy because of their abuse of hospitality.
* The billions of trade dollars that Trump talks about aren't real. The numbers are wrong, the deals don't exist, etc. Instead of selling out on justice for US trade, Trump and Kushner are prob focused on their personal financial schemes with the Saudis, bringing a new level of veniality to international politics.
* Only Trump is so diplomatically crass that he's "doing Saudi Arabia's PR for them" by promoting a fatuous explanation of who killed poor old Jamal K.

^ Yep, I absolutely agree, adidasss. Voting still brings about change in the US. Vote for parties that promote green energy solutions and the Saudi Oil bogeyman will see his stranglehold on the West declining.

There's already been a debate on MB about Should people vote?. IMO the answer is Yes! Look at the results it has produced: it was voting that overturned Prohibition; it was voting that put a black man in the Oval office. How unthinkable was that 150 years back?!! I would advise anyone: vote, be patient, then vote again. Don't waste your democratic right just because there's no instant gratification.

What happened to Kashoggi then?

Trump drops out of Davos in the Desert.

*yawn*

Is this the guy that they are claiming Hillary killed for being an Alex Jones insider?

I disagree. Murder works both ways. Coordinated assassinations of the people ruining this planet is the only way.

America is not a representative democracy, it is a constitutionally-limited representative democratic REPUBLIC. I contact my representatives all the time. They either don't reply, or reply with some pre-written lip service bullsh*t. Money is what creates laws and forces change.

Say the pledge bitch

Agree. Why I always make sure to vote. :)

Anyways, Trump is now apparently conceding that Khashoggi was indeed murdered so I can only imagine that the weight of evidence is so damning there is really no way out of this (and I'm sure they tried VERY hard).

My thinking now is that there is no way the Prince can survive this if the Americans stop defending them. So the solution is clear, the Saudis get rid of the prince, apologize and say it was a rogue decision he made. And Bob's your uncle, some grumbling will be had, people will look a bit cross and shake their fingers at naughty Saudi Arabia, and the oil and weapons deals will continue. The Saudis will maybe stop murdering and dismembering their citizens in their embassies (or do it a bit more discreetly) and everything will be back the way it always was.

If you're going to shorten it, just say REPUBLIC. It makes you sound smarter.

BTW what did you do every morning when the kids had to do the Pledge? Just flip the government off in your head?

The short injun is Elizabeth Warren.

Common sensical thinking like this doesn't apply to the "elite." They can get away with anything.

He will maintain plausible deniability and say it was some rogue team of killers.

Yup. Pat Roberts already came out saying that one murder should not be enough to derail such large transactions.

They have plenty of kill sites. This was just a crime of opportunity.

Next up: lessons from me on humility and politeness.

Just curious, do you act this way with people with whom you interact in person?

Ja, I tell jokes pretty often.

Does your behaviour here reflect your real world interactions?

Absolutely. And I meant you being a 100% douche, not just telling jokes. Everyone does that.

EDIT: You live in the U.S., right? Did you really spell "behavior" with the superfluous U?

Got em!!!

Do you call people douches pretty often during real world interactions in response to them being hilarious? Or resorting childish name calling in general?

Sure did. They call me a rebel.

You think you're hilarious. How quaint, you rebel! And against what are you rebelling, you rebel?

I know I am hilarious. If you're ever able to look past that big ole grudge of yours, you might see it too.

Americanized spelling.

Do you act like this in real life?

For the record I do

Frown can appreciate the blurriest of memes. That takes big humor.

No need if the time frame is only a year.