The Grumpy Old Man Thread (or, Why Today Sucks)

[Trollheart]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

You're an idiot. George Lucas has never been some hard sci-fi mastermind. He made what seemed good and pleasant and likeable, and a robot with a personality was likeable. That's R2. That's all he is. He's a robot with a personality the same as any character and was given more of a personality than many of the human characters because he was so meant to have a personality that Lucas went extra out of his way to give him one. He has agency because Lucas wanted him to have it so kids would have fun listening to him beep and boop.

I'll make one last attempt to get through your blinkered vision here. I never said he had no personality. But he has no FREE WILL. Look at it this way: Data is an android, not a robot (R2 is referred to as a droid, short for android, but he's not really: 3P0 is, but R2 is basically a utility robot and no more). Now, if Data took the Enterprise to the Neutral Zone and killed a bunch of Romulans, would you call Data a killer? Sure: cos Data can reason for himself, think about things, do things on his own and doesn't follow any programme. If TOLD to kill innocents, even by his captain, Data could raise an objection if he thought it was wrong, or even refuse to carry out the order. He could not (so far as I know anyway) be forced to do so.

R2, in the same situation, properly programmed, would kill anyone he was told to. He (it I should say really, but let's not shatter your preconceived illusion here too much; I know you're a fragile flower) would not be able to refuse, raise objections, or think it was wrong, because he is a MACHINE, a robot built to carry out certain tasks. Sure, he may seem cute and the beeps make him seem human, and Lucas engendered a sort of friendship between him and C3P0, but it's illusory. R2 could easily have his memory wiped and forget all about the golden guy, or his mission. He's a tool. You may as well call an AT-AT a murderer.

I know you like him, and WANT him to be a reasoning, thinking being but he ain't, and so to try to ascribe responsibility to him for any killing he may have done is ludicrious. He's the equivalent of a space tank, or any other weapon. He has personality, but no self-determination and he definitely is not sentient. When not doing what he's been programmed to do, R2 likely sits in a corner beeping to himself, waiting for new orders. He's not down the local with other droids, bragging about how many Stormtroopers he killed, and how he hates the Empire. He doesn't: he can't. He's literally just a machine, a tool, and nothing more.

Good troll though. Well done.

Think we could get back on topic now?

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I'll make one last attempt to get through your blinkered vision here. I never said he had no personality. But he has no FREE WILL. Look at it this way: Data is an android, not a robot (R2 is referred to as a droid, short for android, but he's not really: 3P0 is, but R2 is basically a utility robot and no more). Now, if Data took the Enterprise to the Neutral Zone and killed a bunch of Romulans, would you call Data a killer? Sure: cos Data can reason for himself, think about things, do things on his own and doesn't follow any programme. If TOLD to kill innocents, even by his captain, Data could raise an objection if he thought it was wrong, or even refuse to carry out the order. He could not (so far as I know anyway) be forced to do so.

R2, in the same situation, properly programmed, would kill anyone he was told to. He (it I should say really, but let's not shatter your preconceived illusion here too much; I know you're a fragile flower) would not be able to refuse, raise objections, or think it was wrong, because he is a MACHINE, a robot built to carry out certain tasks. Sure, he may seem cute and the beeps make him seem human, and Lucas engendered a sort of friendship between him and C3P0, but it's illusory. R2 could easily have his memory wiped and forget all about the golden guy, or his mission. He's a tool. You may as well call an AT-AT a murderer.

I know you like him, and WANT him to be a reasoning, thinking being but he ain't, and so to try to ascribe responsibility to him for any killing he may have done is ludicrious. He's the equivalent of a space tank, or any other weapon. He has personality, but no self-determination and he definitely is not sentient. When not doing what he's been programmed to do, R2 likely sits in a corner beeping to himself, waiting for new orders. He's not down the local with other droids, bragging about how many Stormtroopers he killed, and how he hates the Empire. He doesn't: he can't. He's literally just a machine, a tool, and nothing more.

Good troll though. Well done.

Think we could get back on topic now?

This is a movie where spaceships fly faster than light speed without hitting anything.

[Plankton]

Originally Posted by Frownland

I wish I was old enough to bitch about how much better it was before everyone and their mother decided to geek out on Star Wars.

Every one was geeking out on Rocky and drinking raw eggs for breakfast. Smokey and the Bandit even had a short run before being smothered by the SW behemoth. Turbulent times.

[OccultHawk]

Smokey and the Bandit was fantastic. I could walk to the theater and saw it like 8 nights in a row. I met a girl at the theater and got one of my first real kisses at Smokey and the Bandit.

[Trollheart]

Originally Posted by Frownland

This is a movie where spaceships fly faster than light speed without hitting anything.

That happens in nearly every sci-fi movie/franchise. Not sure what your point is here?

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

That happens in nearly every sci-fi movie/franchise. Not sure what your point is here?

My point is that it's not a franchise that holds scientific accuracy above plot devices.

[Trollheart]

Originally Posted by Frownland

My point is that it's not a franchise that holds scientific accuracy above plot devices.

It's not, that's true. Batty's theory is still, as you would say, whack, but hell I don't care. Let him think that way if he wants. Ain't gonna bother me. I've had my say.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

It's not, that's true. Batty's theory is still, as you would say, whack, but hell I don't care. Let him think that way if he wants. Ain't gonna bother me. I've had my say.

Yours is equally as whack, since your justifications are based on what we would experience on earth (and Star Trek too I guess), which isn't relevant to the franchise.

[Trollheart]

Originally Posted by Frownland

Yours is equally as whack, since your justifications are based on what we would experience on earth (and Star Trek too I guess), which isn't relevant to the franchise.

If you say so. Mine's based on logic, his on being a child, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by Trollheart

If you say so. Mine's based on logic, his on being a child, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Your stance on a fictional film about a technologically advanced society with many scientific inaccuracies or impossibilities is based on logic derived from earth based technology and real-world expectations. That's retarded.