Why does there seem to be a stigma attached to advocate for Men's Rights?

djchameleon · 11-27-2016, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

What about white males of the LGBTQIAITSFUNTOSTAYATTHEYMCA+ community

white males in that community are part of a marginalized group so of course they experience injustice.

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard · 11-27-2016, 09:20 AM

I tried to find that statistic online but I couldn't, so I'm thinking it's either from an obscure source, you're exaggerating, or you're just wrong. Assuming by position of power you mean political or high on a corporate ladder, this problem has long since been debunked with the wage gap. Men simply work more than women, on average. In fact, let me break out a picture to explain things to you.

Spoiler for this:

I got into an argument with one of my friends recently on whether or not 3rd wave feminism was necessary (which it isn't) and she brought up the idea that there are less female CEOs and women in the film industry. If people honestly believe in 2016 that this is an issue of sexism or oppression and not just because of personal interests.

DwnWthVwls · 11-27-2016, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Social injustice is a form of oppression your "point" makes no sense

By your logic everyone on earth is oppressed because everyone faces some form of social injustice in varying degrees.

**Frownland** · 11-27-2016, 09:29 AM

Eh I can see ingrained sexism making it difficult for a woman to compete in that field but that's super difficult to prove, let alone fix. I think both are at play tbh, but sexism doesn't play nearly as massive of a role in it as some people make it out to.

**Frownland** · 11-27-2016, 09:42 AM

That's so artificial though, it doesn't actually address the root of that issue, it just kind of slaps a bandaid on it.

**Frownland** · 11-27-2016, 10:06 AM

But the leading wage gap statistic that's always mentioned is a comparison of overall wages, not for the same position (because that number is much smaller).

djchameleon · 11-27-2016, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Wage Gap is a different issue however complaints about Wage Gap are for men and women with the SAME position being paid differently not a comparison of what men and women as a whole make which does indeed introduce too many uncontrolled variables

I recently looked into it and the reasoning for this gap is because of the type of jobs. If they are getting paid less for the same positions it is because they didn't negotiate for better wages. Men are better at negotiated for wages than women are. It plays into how society tells women that they shouldn't be demanding and they end up not fighting for a better wage when they are able to negotiate their salaries or they straight up don't bring the same skills to the table.

Men and Women in the service industry specifically fast food industry get paid the same wages.

djchameleon · 11-27-2016, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

You mean the minimum wage?

They legally can't pay them less

That was just one example but even if they aren't being paid minimum they have equal wages in other fields as well. As long as that field isn't a field where they have the ability to negotiate for a higher wage during the hiring process.

It falls back to the responsibility of the individual to ask to be paid more for their skill set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

That's like how Breitbart (our new chief of staff) is quoted as saying the reason for men being more likely to get a job than women is that: "men are just better at interviews"

I don't buy it

I think men see women as easier to exploit and also simply just worth less than men

It's also women's lack of confidence that plays into it and how they view themselves as far as not wanting to be bitchy/aggressive in the workplace.

Paedantic Basterd · 11-27-2016, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwertyy

I tried to find that statistic online but I couldn't, so I'm thinking it's either from an obscure source, you're exaggerating, or you're just wrong. Assuming by position of power you mean political or high on a corporate ladder, this problem has long since been debunked with the wage gap. Men simply work more than women, on average. In fact, let me break out a picture to explain things to you.

I just want to point out, with regard to your graphic, that it's quite short-sighted.

You can't just tease apart these things and say "Well this evens this out". It's just not that simple. For example, the graphic says that men "choose" the highest paid fields, but is that really the end of it? You don't think that decades of assumptions about men's versus women's talents in something like math factors into it? You don't think men are more likely to get accepted into graduate programs in departments like engineering? You don't think that stereotypes about the nurturing nature of women factor into their presence in careers like psychology, social work, and nursing?

And I'm not saying it ends there either. You can come back at me and tell me how nursing and social work are biased against men, and you'd probably be right. You could come back at me and say that neurocognitively, men tend to outperform women in tasks of spatial orientation or logical reasoning. Then I'd mention "stereotype threat" to you, but it'd only be one part of the picture.

Inequality is one of the MOST COMPLICATED problems we face in society because it's deeply engrained in the fabric of our psychology and how we've constructed a society, and there is no single thing that we can tweak that will fix it and let it all fall into place. Inequality acts and is compounded at SO MANY levels.

Point is, everybody suffers some kind of discrimination in society. Instead of denying that this is true (because everyone wants to be the biggest victim when it comes to human rights), can we not acknowledge all of these areas at the same time, and work towards treating everyone better?

It's just not possible to say "X is the biggest problem. Once we solve X, everything will fall into place".

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard · 11-27-2016, 11:59 AM

I agree 100% with everything you just said PB. There's a reason why men had higher paid professions in the past, just like there's a reason why there's more men in these powerful political positions discussed earlier by elphanor. My point is the issue is ingrained in society and the way we think, it has nothing to do with women just "making less" than men, it's not a black and white issue.

I also think the statistic regarding women in there 20s making more than men is quite interesting. I believe that graph has it wrong because I've heard 4% a lot more than 8%, but nonetheless it shows a strong change in numbers.

I wonder if it has anything to do with women being more willing to commit to staying in a post-secondary Institute for longer. That's a totally anecdotal guess, but from what I've seen men seem to, on average, seem more determined to jump right into the work force whereas women take more care to ensure they're in the best position possible when entering (I.e higher degree, better education.)

11-27-2016, 09:29 AM	#364 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Eh I can see ingrained sexism making it difficult for a woman to compete in that field but that's super difficult to prove, let alone fix. I think both are at play tbh, but sexism doesn't play nearly as massive of a role in it as some people make it out to. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

11-27-2016, 09:42 AM	#365 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	That's so artificial though, it doesn't actually address the root of that issue, it just kind of slaps a bandaid on it. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

11-27-2016, 10:06 AM	#366 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	But the leading wage gap statistic that's always mentioned is a comparison of overall wages, not for the same position (because that number is much smaller). __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x