Lucem Ferre

I know you aren't attacking me. I guess I'm just over exaggerating but some of the responses have been.

This is a different case. This is an issue nobody really seems to know **** about. This is something I think we all deep down have an opinion about and I put forth my opinion. I felt as though I was just as educated as anybody else, to be honest. But nobody can assume they know everything about anything either. Plus, I'm completely open to people that can offer information that changes my perspective. How can I learn or gain a better perspective if I'm not starting a dialogue in the first place? It doesn't make any sense for me to just go with the program here. As opposed to keeping my mouth shut on a topic quantum physics when I don't know **** about quantum physics. Most of my tangent has been questions too. Like, I think this way, and you think that way so WHY do you think that way? It's how social and political conversations should go. With all our education there is always something that we probably didn't consider.

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Paedantic Basterd

This is true of so many kinds of prejudice. We have ideas about groups of people that are invalid at the individual level--exposure to individuals helps us break down stereotypes and misunderstandings. Unfortunately, trans people are uncommon (although probably more common than we currently realize) and stigmatized, such that it's not safe for them to be open about it, meaning most people don't get to have those breakthrough experiences that lead to understanding and acceptance.

Pet_Sounds

I miss the good ol' days when men were men and women were women.

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Lucem Ferre

People don't like change.

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The Batlord

Then ask questions. Don't put forth an opinion in a way that seems to demand a defensive answer. Just ask questions.

This is one of the things that bothers me as a straight guy. I'm not particularly attached to my sexuality or gender, but I feel like I can claim them comfortably, even if my non-standard answers to questions of my sexuality and gender evoke side-eyed glances, at least I'm answering more or less "correctly" (i.e. I'm not gay or trans so I'm not actively rejected). It almost makes me feel like a sellout when I say, no, I'm not gay. It just feels like garbage to me that I should feel better about not answering "wrongly" just because I'd rather not be marginalized by my fellow man.

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Lucem Ferre

You want me to NOT sound defensive? That's asking too much of me.

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Chiomara

This isn't the greatest example/thought experiment, but: would you be comfortable if, suddenly, you were forced to dress like a woman and act like a woman forever? If not, why? Can you explain it? And regarding the reinforcing stereotypes thing-- the fact is that trans people are often murdered for not "passing"-- even if they are passing, in fact, they get murdered just for being trans. There is far more pressure on them to conform.

And, I mean, biological males/females reinforce stereotypes, too-- you do it, I do it--all of us have certain ingrained behaviors that we perform endlessly. That doesn't mean they're not genuine necessarily, even if they are in fact rather stereotypical behaviors. (Women are traditionally expected to be hyper-accommodating, and cook and clean, for instance. We are often punished for not being perfectly accommodating. Fortunately, I genuinely like to be accommodating+cook and clean. But those are stereotypical behaviors, yes. Nothing wrong with doing or not doing them, it's just unfortunate when those traditionally masculine/feminine behaviors are expected of you for no logical reason.)

Also, why is it all about the body for you? (Aside from the fact that external genitalia is part of what makes one biologically male/female) Personally I've never understood the obsession with another person's genitals. Is a floppy appendage between one's legs inherently more masculine than anything else? Why? I mean, can you explain it beyond "penis = MALE" ? I'm not even asking to debate; I'm genuinely curious, since, to me, a vagina is no more inherently feminine than a penis regardless of who it belongs to. It's just... genitals. Who cares.

It's always been that way. Our society happens to have very narrow accepted mode of gender expression. It's unfortunate that, even after one transitions (even if they do not--not everyone can afford it), they still must flawlessly perform what society's idea of male/female is in order to receive a modicum of respect from others. All because they committed the great crime of having the "wrong" genitals in the eyes of others. Also, all trans people are different-- not all of them desire to "mutilate their genitals" at all. Plenty are content with just hormone therapy and/or top surgery, or surgery to make their faces look more masculine or feminine. Would they feel quite as compelled to do those things if not for our society's rigid expectations of what a man/woman should look like? I don't know. I mean, I'm a biological woman but I still often feel I don't look perfectly feminine enough due to the insane and constantly-shifting beauty standards.

All I'm saying is, gender is a nebulous thing, and even I cannot entirely explain WHY exactly I identify as female. Just as most can't explain why they're straight or gay or asexual; they just are. (This is probably my last post on this topic; I've already argued about this endlessly in real life so it's a bit draining and tiresome at this point.)

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Chula Vista

The first medically documented case of a transgender (or previously transsexual) is from 1921.


Interested quote to add to the discussion from around that time.

Makes sense.

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Lucem Ferre

Probably not. I wouldn't feel comfortable in a lot of other areas either. I don't feel comfortable in a shirt unless it borderlines a skirt for me, personally. There are a few things I do people call feminine. I braid my hair, people call that feminine. I have attributes that could match either gender. I don't feel comfortable changing anything I have come to know I am.

I think biologically and socially we are more prone to follow these behavioral patterns but doesn't define our gender/sex. Though, thinking on it, I think a male who acts very feminine would make me much more uncomfortable than them just getting a sex change. But that's my problem.

Because by definition that's what I recognize gender/sex by. As a heterosexual male I will not be attracted to a physical male just because they identify as a female. I have a hard time being physically attracted to a transitioning or even fully transitioned females because they usually are very masculine still.

I can explain why I identify as a male. I was born with a penis and an XX chromosome. My stepdad used to call me a little girl because I didn't play sports. Used to tell me he was going to buy me a dress a lot. I never felt as though I was a different gender because of those standards. I just felt as though he was an ignorant *******. But no, I can't explain why I'm straight, or why I like the music I do, or a lot of things about my personality. Which makes sense. But at that point it goes to why we cater to gender identity over other things.

Oh, and, don't ever pay attention to these beauty standards that people try to shove down your throat. They are bull****. Everybody has different taste and preferences. You've looked gorgeous in every picture I've seen.

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Frownland

I said they were hairy infected ****s, get it right.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.