Why does there seem to be a stigma attached to advocate for Men's Rights?

Chiomara · 08-13-2017, 03:47 PM

I haven't noticed anyone "attacking" you, Lucem. You also keep using the word "gender" instead of sex when talking about one's biological sex/reproductive organs. One's biological sex is comprised of multiple things (beyond one's external genitalia), things which you can't necessarily know by glancing at a person. And regarding your question.. That has already been answered multiple times. It is right there in the dictionary. Gender = the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits and characteristics commonly associated with one's sex.

And yes, like you said, there are people who consider themselves non-binary and don't particularly identify with one gender or the other. I'm biologically female, and I more or less identify with the female gender, but I know that a great deal of those traditionally-feminine/traditionally female traits (which vary depending on the culture you grow up in) I identify with are ingrained in me due to constant social conditioning that began in childhood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Kinda the same I guess, but kinda the opposite too. I'm often super reserved at first so I doubt that I make any kind of impression whatsoever, then I'll slowly warm up but still be boring until I reach a kind of critical mass and then The Batlord comes out and nobody can understand how I can be 30-years-old and such a childish twat with no mouth filter. By that point either the person/people can't stand me or I'm sort of like a really irritating little brother they affectionately put up with but still never invite to parties. Never had the experience of a woman telling me I won them over though. Kinda hard to be seen as a sexual object when all you do is deliver corny and/or mean spirited one liners and constantly come up with new ways to confuse and annoy people. You have no idea how many times people have looked at me like an alien when I told them how old I was.

:c Do you come across quite differently in person than you do on here? I feel it's just about impossible to mesh well with people (romantically or otherwise) in the long run if they don't have the same sense of humor/aren't on precisely the same strange wavelength. If they don't at least share the same sense of humor--unpleasant as it may be to others-- it likely isn't worth it anyway.

Lucem Ferre · 08-13-2017, 03:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Paedantic Basterd

The transitional process inherently has different stages within it, though, starting with the decision to transition, moving through behavioural and social changes, on toward physical changes. We're saying that the decisional, behavioural, and social changes count as part of that process and deserve to be respected for each individual undergoing it.

Yeah, that makes sense, but for me personally, it's all about what the physical body is. And, what if they never transition? Like that girl in the post above I gave as an example?

And like, that's the thing I find weird. Why do people change who they are or how they behave when they decide or realize they are a different gender? Isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes?

Paedantic Basterd · 08-13-2017, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Yeah, that makes sense, but for me personally, it's all about what the physical body is. And, what if they never transition? Like that girl in the post above I gave as an example?

And like, that's the thing I find weird. Why do people change who they are or how they behave when they decide or realize they are a different gender? Isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes?

If they don't complete a transition, then we've arrived at this between-states thing we've been discussing, where it's easiest and most appropriate to call them what they want to be called.

As for the why of it... we're not there yet. The research is too new, but genetics and fetal hormones and brain structure are all involved. The debate about whether or not it reinforces stereotypes about femininity/masculinity is also a valid philosophical debate and a subject I can't really comment on.

The Batlord · 08-13-2017, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiomara

:c Do you come across quite differently in person than you do on here? I feel it's just about impossible to mesh well with people (romantically or otherwise) in the long run if they don't have the same sense of humor/aren't on precisely the same strange wavelength. If they don't at least share the same sense of humor--unpleasant as it may be to others-- it likely isn't worth it anyway.

Yeah pretty much I'm like I am online in real life if I'm comfortable with you/the environment I'm in. If we ever meet in real life then I imagine you'll get the full Batlord experience after a short period of me making sure I'm comfortable that you're the person you are online and that you're comfortable with the Batlord you experience here. At the very least at some point within a reasonable time period of interaction I would be the caustic douchebag that you see before you, bitch.

Lucem Ferre · 08-13-2017, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiomara

I haven't noticed anyone "attacking" you, Lucem. You also keep using the word "gender" instead of sex when talking about one's biological sex/reproductive organs. One's biological sex is comprised of multiple things (beyond one's external genitalia), things which you can't necessarily know by glancing at a person. And regarding your question.. That has already been answered multiple times. It is right there in the dictionary. Gender = the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits and characteristics commonly associated with one's sex.

And yes, like you said, there are people who consider themselves non-binary and don't particularly identify with one gender or the other. I'm biologically female, and I more or less identify with the female gender, but I know that a great deal of those traditionally-feminine/traditionally female traits (which vary depending on the culture you grow up in) I identify with are ingrained in me due to constant social conditioning that began in childhood.

I'm being attacked by Elph, you know the guy who pretends he knows what he's talking about while you and Paedantic do all the leg work. Or Frownland says that people that don't follow this gender identity rule are harry ****s. But I guess they are going to talk **** regardless.

When did gender become defined by social behavior rather than your sex? Not denying it is, looked it up, but still. Because they are both synonyms. And isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes? That's what I don't get most. Like, we're conditioned to believe that a gender/sex is supposed to act a certain way, some people that feel as though they don't fit into that gender box but feel as though they fit into a different gender box start identifying as a different gender and even go as far as to mutilate their genitals just to fit a social construct that is forced on us. Of course that CAN'T be the only reason for people to transition, but they it constantly gets put on me seems that way. Shouldn't it be pushed that your sex shouldn't define your behavior rather than having people transition to fit our boxes?

Lucem Ferre · 08-13-2017, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paedantic Basterd

If they don't complete a transition, then we've arrived at this between-states thing we've been discussing, where it's easiest and most appropriate to call them what they want to be called.

As for the why of it... we're not there yet. The research is too new, but genetics and fetal hormones and brain structure are all involved. The debate about whether or not it reinforces stereotypes about femininity/masculinity is also a valid philosophical debate and a subject I can't really comment on.

I mean, like, if there is a harry man who wears dresses but never wants to transition, yet prefers to be called a female I don't feel comfortable with that.

The Batlord · 08-13-2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I'm being attacked by Elph, you know the guy who pretends he knows what he's talking about while you and Paedantic do all the leg work. Or Frownland says that people that don't follow this gender identity rule are harry ****s. But I guess they are going to talk **** regardless.

When did gender become defined by social behavior rather than your sex? Not denying it is, looked it up, but still. Because they are both synonyms. And isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes? That's what I don't get most. Like, we're conditioned to believe that a gender/sex is supposed to act a certain way, some people that feel as though they don't fit into that gender box but feel as though they fit into a different gender box start identifying as a different gender and even go as far as to mutilate their genitals just to fit a social construct that is forced on us. Of course that CAN'T be the only reason for people to transition, but they it constantly gets put on me seems that way. Shouldn't it be pushed that your sex shouldn't define your behavior rather than having people transition to fit our boxes?

Bro, I'M not attacking you. I'm just asking that you put aside your assumptions until you research the subject more. I don't feel the need to have any particular opinion which is why I don't, but if you do feel the need to publish an opinion then don't you think you should really immerse yourself before going off on a tangent? Otherwise doesn't it make sense to just say, "I don't know, so carry on"?

Paedantic Basterd · 08-13-2017, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I mean, like, if there is a harry man who wears dresses but never wants to transition, yet prefers to be called a female I don't feel comfortable with that.

If I'm being honest, I don't think that description represents a vast majority of the already-tiny number of people who experience this phenomenon. If they're in your life long enough for it to impact you, you will probably find it is more complex than it first seems for them, and if you keep them in your life, you'll probably find a way to come to terms with it. I think that the issue you describe is probably not big enough to negate all the valid examples we've both discussed so far.

Paedantic Basterd · 08-13-2017, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

When did gender become defined by social behavior rather than your sex? Not denying it is, looked it up, but still. Because they are both synonyms. And isn't that just reinforcing stereotypes? That's what I don't get most. Like, we're conditioned to believe that a gender/sex is supposed to act a certain way, some people that feel as though they don't fit into that gender box but feel as though they fit into a different gender box start identifying as a different gender and even go as far as to mutilate their genitals just to fit a social construct that is forced on us. Of course that CAN'T be the only reason for people to transition, but they it constantly gets put on me seems that way. Shouldn't it be pushed that your sex shouldn't define your behavior rather than having people transition to fit our boxes?

These are all worthy questions, but I think it's important to add that in many situations, it's not just the behaviour of their biological sex that trans people don't identify with, but their own bodies. The extent to which gender is tied to biology or social constructs is going to differ for every individual. Not being a trans person, I don't feel like I can weigh in on what it means to be transgender, but it's definitely an interesting topic of discussion.

The Batlord · 08-13-2017, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paedantic Basterd

If I'm being honest, I don't think that description represents a vast majority of the already-tiny number of people who experience this phenomenon. If they're in your life long enough for it to impact you, you will probably find it is more complex than it first seems for them, and if you keep them in your life, you'll probably find a way to come to terms with it. I think that the issue you describe is probably not big enough to negate all the valid examples we've both discussed so far.

I think a lot of the "negative" discussion about transgenderism is probably down to not knowing anybody you know is transgender. I've never known any out trans people, which is why I really don't have any opinion other than it's probably some kind of thing but I don't know what that thing is. If I knew any out trans people then it would probably be a more important issue to me, but they're kind of rare, at least in southeastern Virginia, so it's a pretty abstract issue to me.