Your Day

**Marie Monday** · 03-27-2021, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I think the view throughout history was that there are no such thing as homosexuals there's just sex thats moral or immoral

ironically Foccault would later agree with this sans the morality, that sexuality is a preference

this does make it fundementally different from race

but is it enough to say that thinking gays have had it worse than blacks is racist?

Yeah that's what I meant. I should have said pretending they don't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

Either put up some solid arguments about that or shut up, ja? You sound like Trump wailing about the election being stolen from him. Something doesn't become true just because you keep repeating it.

The primary reason why I keep making this comparison is because racial discrimination is much better established and understood. It would be wonderful if I didn't have to compare apples and oranges just to make my point across, but here we are. Of course the origin and type of discrimination based on race and sexual orientation is very different, what I argue is that the effect of the discrimination on those groups is comparable.

I disagree that regarding gay people the world "just pretends we don't exist", that would in fact be quite a relief. Having anti-gay legislation means quite the opposite, specifically identifying a certain part of the population for discrimination for who they are. And even outside of legislation, which I would say is a real and palpable way of bringing home just where discrimination against gay people is in this day and age, gay people are subject to all kinds of abuse, physical and verbal, which again, is very much comparable to the abuse suffered by racial minorities.

I also don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that having anti-gay legislation is "just" meant to erase us, like attempting to eliminate an entire group of people is a minor annoyance? The vast majority of anti-gay legislation is not meant to shut people up, it is meant to eradicate us as we are, not to tolerate our existence as long as we keep our business private (which is the point of the anti-"gay propaganda" laws). Very different things but both of course incredibly problematic.

But really, the biggest issue I have in this discussion is the last paragraph, the attempt to assign a relative value of the respective insults by different people. We have a situation where a member of a specific sub-group of people (me, a gay man) is saying a word specifically meant to target people who are members of my sub-group should not be used in any context (which you thankfully agree with). That for me should be the end of the conversation. In my mind it should be very clear that the only people who get to decide the relative strength of a particular insult and how it should be used are exactly the people who it's directed against, directly or indirectly. Nobody asked white people how they feel about the n-word, it was black people who fought and largely succeeded in limiting its use by non-black people. The same should apply with the f-word. But for some reason it doesn't. Just like discrimination and prejudiced statements against gay people are not policed to the same extent racism is. And I think it should be. Discrimination of any sort should be fought against, hopefully one day without having to resort to comparing with other types of discrimination. But right now I think it's the best tool we can use to make people understand what exactly is happening.

I hope that makes sense.

1. By erasing/shutting up I meant what you're saying: not only keeping silent about being gay but also not daring to practise their sexuality. I usually phrase these things pretty sloppily, especially at 1am, but I though my meaning was clear from the context
2. One can understand the connotation of a slur even without being part of the targeted group

Ok that's it for me cleaning up my vague 1am mess bye

adidasss · 03-27-2021, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

As in the queen's English, Mr Colonizer?

I'm a south Slav bro, we never colonized anyone, we were the ones being colonized. Learn your history/geography.

Quote:

"I'm not racist because I'm right."

Damn, I hadn't considered that.

I'm not racist because you haven't proven I am.

See, one thing is if someone says "Hey them black/chinese/indian people are really trashy and stupid right?", an entirely different matter is if someone says "Hey that X person is pretty trashy and dumb amirite?" and that trashy dumb person is a poc. I think you understand the difference. Or should anyway.

Quote:

You are and we're very proud of you.

Quote:

Introspection is when you try to gauge the validity of your own thoughts and beliefs, what informs them, and so on as honestly as you can. I think that if racists used introspection, they'd realize they've been brainwashed into prejudice. Widespread incapability of introspection is one of many things that are keeping racism alive

That's a very lucid clarification for someone baked.

~~jwb~~ · 03-27-2021, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Nah it was black ink, that's probably why you ignored it.

this dude is going to keep responding to you seriously no matter how obvious you make the trolling

**Frownland** · 03-27-2021, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

I'm a south Slav bro, we never colonized anyone, we were the ones being colonized. Learn your history/geography.

Then take off the colonizer mask.

Quote:

See, one thing is if someone says "Hey them black/chinese/indian people are really trashy and stupid right?", an entirely different matter is if someone says "Hey that X person is pretty trashy and dumb amirite?" and that trashy dumb person is a poc. I think you understand the difference. Or should anyway.

Nice try. You remain racist until you can prove otherwise.

adidasss · 03-27-2021, 08:39 AM

Sure, whatever. Good weed?

**Frownland** · 03-27-2021, 08:41 AM

How's your brain damage?

**Marie Monday** · 03-27-2021, 08:46 AM

Trollheart · 03-27-2021, 11:10 AM

Okay, I'm not getting involved in this, but I do have to say this. I am deeply disappointed in the level of modship here. I have always believed that mods should hold themselves to a higher standard than us, otherwise what is the point in them trying to settle disputes and so on, but here I see none of that.

I understand that two people have very deep feelings about the subjects being discussed, but I see a four-way personal attack here - Addidas/JWB, Addidas/Frownland, Frownland/Addidas and Marie/Addidas. Possibly even more permutations. The point is that I expect - and I think we all expect - mods to knock this kind of behaviour on the head and restore some sort of calm, but that's not what's happening here. Mods - not even just one mod but two - are fanning the flames, contributing to the drama in a very negative way, when they should be stopping it.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, what I am saying is that this very much contravenes our rules, is a blatant and as I said above almost four-way personal attack, involving people who should know and do better, and it's become a serious embarrassment. Others are probably sitting back and enjoying the hypocrisy here, but it's setting a terrible example.

I'm particularly disappointed with you, Marie: I always felt you were a level-headed person who wouldn't allow herself to get drawn into these sort of circular arguments which go nowhere as nobody is prepared to meet halfway or just agree to disagree, but you've been pouring gasoline on the fire just like Frown has.

Mods should be able to shelve their personal feelings and say enough is enough; that's what you're paid the big money for. It's, to me, shameful to see you both allow yourselves be dragged down - or indeed, drag yourselves down - to the level of common baiting, namecalling and sniping we should perhaps expect from some members, but not mods.

After all, if we can't rely on mods to keep order and not be drawn into these petty arguments, things like this will go on forever. The hypocrisy is that were this a subject you were not invested in, with different people, the chances are it would have been shut down long ago. You can't, or you shouldn't be able to, pick and choose when to mod and when not. You can take your mod hat off, of course, to join in general discussions, but when it comes to personal nasty attacks you're expected to put on that mod hat and wade in.

I'm sure it doesn't matter to anyone, but the way this has been handled is, to me, an embarrassment for the forum, an indictment of poor modship (which I would normally balk at levelling at at least Marie, but here I can't) and overall a real disappointment to me personally.

That's all I have to say. Hate mail to the usual address.

**Frownland** · 03-27-2021, 11:21 AM

Saying that adidasss is racist is no more of an attack than saying that my username starts with F. Facts are facts.

**Marie Monday** · 03-27-2021, 11:29 AM

Wtf Trolls, when have I been personally attacking adi or fanning the flames in this discussion? My only contributions as far as I recall are a sincere discussion with adi and a Heathers reference just for the sake of it.

03-27-2021, 08:39 AM	#74665 (permalink)
adidasss Slavic gay sauce Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 7,993	Sure, whatever. Good weed? __________________ “Think of what a paradise this world would be if men were kind and wise.” - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle. Last.fm

03-27-2021, 08:41 AM	#74666 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	How's your brain damage? __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

03-27-2021, 11:10 AM	#74668 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	Okay, I'm not getting involved in this, but I do have to say this. I am deeply disappointed in the level of modship here. I have always believed that mods should hold themselves to a higher standard than us, otherwise what is the point in them trying to settle disputes and so on, but here I see none of that. I understand that two people have very deep feelings about the subjects being discussed, but I see a four-way personal attack here - Addidas/JWB, Addidas/Frownland, Frownland/Addidas and Marie/Addidas. Possibly even more permutations. The point is that I expect - and I think we all expect - mods to knock this kind of behaviour on the head and restore some sort of calm, but that's not what's happening here. Mods - not even just one mod but two - are fanning the flames, contributing to the drama in a very negative way, when they should be stopping it. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, what I am saying is that this very much contravenes our rules, is a blatant and as I said above almost four-way personal attack, involving people who should know and do better, and it's become a serious embarrassment. Others are probably sitting back and enjoying the hypocrisy here, but it's setting a terrible example. I'm particularly disappointed with you, Marie: I always felt you were a level-headed person who wouldn't allow herself to get drawn into these sort of circular arguments which go nowhere as nobody is prepared to meet halfway or just agree to disagree, but you've been pouring gasoline on the fire just like Frown has. Mods should be able to shelve their personal feelings and say enough is enough; that's what you're paid the big money for. It's, to me, shameful to see you both allow yourselves be dragged down - or indeed, drag yourselves down - to the level of common baiting, namecalling and sniping we should perhaps expect from some members, but not mods. After all, if we can't rely on mods to keep order and not be drawn into these petty arguments, things like this will go on forever. The hypocrisy is that were this a subject you were not invested in, with different people, the chances are it would have been shut down long ago. You can't, or you shouldn't be able to, pick and choose when to mod and when not. You can take your mod hat off, of course, to join in general discussions, but when it comes to personal nasty attacks you're expected to put on that mod hat and wade in. I'm sure it doesn't matter to anyone, but the way this has been handled is, to me, an embarrassment for the forum, an indictment of poor modship (which I would normally balk at levelling at at least Marie, but here I can't) and overall a real disappointment to me personally. That's all I have to say. Hate mail to the usual address. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

03-27-2021, 11:21 AM	#74669 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Saying that adidasss is racist is no more of an attack than saying that my username starts with F. Facts are facts. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x