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OccultHawk · 01-10-2021, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

So let me try to explain it another way. The mistake you make is that you think that when someone says a brain is different from a mind, because both are linked to the same physical object, they must mean there's some other mystery ingredient to the mind than the pure physical thing. That's not true. Example: numerals and numbers are different things, even though they're linked to the same physical object, and there's no mystical stuff involved.

Either they’re the same thing or they’re different. If they’re different it has to be a non-material difference because if it’s exactly the same physical material it’s not different.

**Marie Monday** · 01-10-2021, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Either they’re the same thing or they’re different. If they’re different it has to be a non-material difference because if it’s exactly the same physical material it’s not different.

correct! we're getting somewhere. The difference is just conceptual. It's really not a revolutionary profound thing, which is what I'm trying to explain

I mean you're correct except that what I'm trying to show here is that things can correspond to the same thing physically and not be the same thing, because of his conceptual difference

OccultHawk · 01-10-2021, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday

that's just linguistics. The mind is thought, the brain is the vehicle for that thought. A brain can be dead but it's still a brain. There's just no thought in it anymore, so the mind is no more. That does NOT mean the thought is a mystical thing which can go spook about, see my last post

Then the living brain is thought. So thought is strictly material. It’s not just semantics. It’s the correction of a misunderstanding that is the cornerstone of psychology.

WWWP · 01-10-2021, 02:52 PM

No one else can experience or truly witness your thought. It's not material.

**Marie Monday** · 01-10-2021, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Then the living brain is thought. So thought is strictly material. It’s not just semantics. It’s the correction of a misunderstanding that is the cornerstone of psychology.

no, you're making the same mistake again: you think that if things correspond to the same thing physically they have to be the same thing, which is not true. Just like a numeral isn't a number, even though both can be represented by '1' for instance

OccultHawk · 01-10-2021, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP

No one else can experience or truly witness your thought. It's not material.

With brain imaging with a high enough resolution they will be able to because it definitely is material. If it’s not material it’s either empty space or it doesn’t exist at all. Only nothingness is intangible.

**Marie Monday** · 01-10-2021, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

With brain imaging with a high enough resolution they will be able to because it definitely is material. If it’s not material it’s either empty space or it doesn’t exist at all. Only nothingness is intangible.

no, in that case they can not witness thoughts, they witness the things representing thoughts. Maybe they'll be able to read off the thoughts from the brain signals, which does not mean the thoughts are the brain signals. Just like I can read off the concept of the number one from the numeral '1', but they're not the same.

Another example: music is a phenomenon that is physically made up of sound waves, but music is not those sound waves. Conceptually it's more than that. That doesn't mean there's a mystical music ghost living in the sound waves

OccultHawk · 01-10-2021, 03:12 PM

Quote:

music is not those sound waves

Music absolutely is the sound waves and only the sound waves. And thoughts are those signals and as brain imaging improves that will become more and more apparent and at that point hopefully people will understand why this misunderstanding is devastating to the field of psychology as it’s practiced today.

Your numeral vs number analogy is much stronger and my best response is that it’s not applicable to the brain / mind dichotomy. I’m not going to call it a false equivalency or anything. I’m just going to admit I don’t have a good response to that one.

**Marie Monday** · 01-10-2021, 03:18 PM

Dude, there's no good response because it's true. Really.
Getting back to the music example, because it shows where your mistake lies and it's the easiest example to work with. Take this simple argument: there are sound waves which are not music. Therefore, they're a different thing. You might say that just means music is a type of sound wave, so another argument: some music can make you cry. If you deciphered soundwaves to find out what notes are being played without hearing it, you wouldn't cry. Physically music is only manifested by sound waves, conceptually it's a different thing.

~~jwb~~ · 01-10-2021, 03:20 PM

and you said I have perseverance. You're wasting your time Marie.

01-10-2021, 03:20 PM	#72170 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	and you said I have perseverance. You're wasting your time Marie.