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Anteater · 04-19-2020, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieMarie

No it doesn't.

Roger Penrose says you're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Photons have worked around the trolly problem and are non-binary.

Make your case Ant.

Simply put, if consciousness is just a series of mechanical processes and everything is just in our heads, observing a particle's path should have no bearing on any kind of result. And yet by observing a particle's path – even if that observation should not disturb the particle's motion – we change the outcome.

Lucem Ferre · 04-19-2020, 07:59 AM

*you're

(Puts on douchey sunglasses and plays generic electric guitar sounds)

OccultHawk · 04-19-2020, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Roger Penrose says your wrong.

Simply put, if consciousness is just a series of mechanical processes and everything is just in our heads, observing a particle's path should have no bearing on any kind of result. And yet by observing a particle's path – even if that observation should not disturb the particle's motion – we change the outcome.

From wiki

Quote:

Penrose believes that such deterministic yet non-algorithmic processes may come into play in the quantum mechanical wave function reduction, and may be harnessed by the brain.

He won lots of awards. He’s smart.

Have you read those books?

Anteater · 04-19-2020, 08:23 AM

I've read Shadows Of The Mind. Haven't bought his more recent stuff.

OccultHawk · 04-19-2020, 08:23 AM

Was it reasonably accessible?

Anteater · 04-19-2020, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Was it reasonably accessible?

I'd say that between that one and its predecessor from '89 The Emperor's New Mind that you'd find a lot of it enjoyable. He was way ahead of the curve even back then.

**Marie Monday** · 04-19-2020, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Roger Penrose says you're wrong.

Simply put, if consciousness is just a series of mechanical processes and everything is just in our heads, observing a particle's path should have no bearing on any kind of result. And yet by observing a particle's path – even if that observation should not disturb the particle's motion – we change the outcome.

Your argument isn't clear enough to me to judge it. You're saying that you think consciousness is more than an accumulation of instincts and chemical processes in the brain because observation changes the outcome of a double-slit experiment? What are Penrose's arguments?

OccultHawk · 04-19-2020, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieMarie

No it doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieMarie

Your argument isn't clear enough to me to judge it. You're saying that you think consciousness is more than an accumulation of instincts and chemical processes in the brain because observation changes the outcome of a double-slit experiment? What are Penrose's arguments?

Then why did you judge it?

I’m just repeating what Ant said but if merely observing something alters the outcome it’s a reasonable assumption that there’s something to consciousness that extends beyond biology (or at least biology that resembles anything we understand to be biology).

I strongly lean in the other direction but that’s all the more reason to explore that argument.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes or misrepresented you Ant.

Anteater · 04-19-2020, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieMarie

Your argument isn't clear enough to me to judge it. You're saying that you think consciousness is more than an accumulation of instincts and chemical processes in the brain because observation changes the outcome of a double-slit experiment? What are Penrose's arguments?

This article is a good starting point and summation of Penrose's core argument.

Letter: Quantum theory may explain the soul

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Sorry if I stepped on your toes or misrepresented you Ant.

You didn't misrepresent me at all, so don't worry about it.

I'm not expecting a lot of agreement with my viewpoints here, but I'm just putting it out there that some fairly brilliant people have looked at this and continue to make compelling cases that are relevant to the greater discourse surrounding the subject of human consciousness.

**Marie Monday** · 04-19-2020, 09:19 AM

Consider this: what if measurements are recorded, but not observed during the experiment? No consciousness is present to interfere, however, we can safely assume the interference pattern would be disturbed when the measurements are checked afterwards.
Basically, much too little is understood about quantum mechanics conceptually to make any claims about its implications on consciousness

Edit: thanks, will read. @hawk: I judged his statement, not his arguments for it.

04-19-2020, 08:23 AM	#69585 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	Was it reasonably accessible? __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html