Your Day - Music Banter Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > The Lounge
Register Blogging Today's Posts
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2019, 10:47 PM   #63941 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 22,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug McClasky View Post
Like I'm basically asking if it's a difference in "philosophy" or if there's a measurable difference in equations. Like, is a thing that's not moving in mid-air because it's reached its zenith mathematically different from something that is sitting still simply because of gravity and air pressure that are working against each other but keeping said thing still?
I think that’s a great question because it gets into why is there a different term for something just because the amount of time in that situation is negligible from a human perspective.
__________________

2016 2017 2018 2019 2020

Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion

Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND:

https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

OccultHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 10:51 PM   #63942 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 22,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds View Post
Yeah, there's a difference in equations. Calculus was invented basically for this question. You need an "open interval" (which can be arbitrarily small) of time around a given point to discuss instantaneous rate of change, and the difference comes down to the behaviour of the object in that open interval as it approaches the point you're interested in. In the case of the ball in mid-air, its motion changes immediately before and after the point in time at which its velocity is zero; the ball on the ground doesn't move at all.

Sorry I'm not explaining this very well, it's hard without math.
But the way we understand time philosophically does seem to influence the way physicists describe the phenomenon.
__________________

2016 2017 2018 2019 2020

Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion

Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND:

https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

OccultHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 10:58 PM   #63943 (permalink)
Remember the underscore
 
Pet_Sounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The other side
Posts: 2,488
Default

Time is what a clock measures.
__________________
Everybody's dying just to get the disease
Pet_Sounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:07 PM   #63944 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 22,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds View Post
Time is what a clock measures.
Couldn’t an extraordinarily precise clock measure the amount of time a ball in mid air isn’t moving so therefore if physicists wanted to describe it as such it could be called at rest same as me sitting on a sofa because it’s just a matter of time before my body weight is going to win out even though at the moment the forces are (almost) equal not allowing me to fall through?
__________________

2016 2017 2018 2019 2020

Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion

Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND:

https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

OccultHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:11 PM   #63945 (permalink)
Remember the underscore
 
Pet_Sounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The other side
Posts: 2,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultHawk View Post
Couldn’t an extraordinarily precise clock measure the amount of time a ball in mid air isn’t moving so therefore if physicists wanted to describe it as such it could be called at rest same as me sitting on a sofa because it’s just a matter of time before my body weight is going to win out even though at the moment the forces are (almost) equal not allowing me to fall through?
No, no matter how small your interval of measure is the ball in midair will always exhibit some movement in that interval.

EDIT: To be clear, we're talking about Newtonian physics here.
__________________
Everybody's dying just to get the disease
Pet_Sounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:16 PM   #63946 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 48,199
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds View Post
Yeah, there's a difference in equations. Calculus was invented basically for this question. You need an "open interval" (which can be arbitrarily small) of time around a given point to discuss instantaneous rate of change, and the difference comes down to the behaviour of the object in that open interval as it approaches the point you're interested in. In the case of the ball in mid-air, its motion changes immediately before and after the point in time at which its velocity is zero; the ball on the ground doesn't move at all.

Sorry I'm not explaining this very well, it's hard without math.
So the "point of non-zero acceleration" is simply a point in whatever relevant bigger equation that relates to the equation that describes the behavior of the object before the "point of non-zero acceleration" and how that relates to the equation describing the behavior of the object after the "point of non-zero acceleration"? [i.e. the ball was thrown (before point of non-zero acceleration), the ball reached its height (point of non-zero acceleration), and the ball fell (after point of non-zero acceleration)].

That sounds like a truism to me, and if that's correct is there an equation or "family" of equations or whatever to describe that "point of non-zero acceleration" or is that point simply a plot to point in the greater equation? Like that point of non-zero acceleration is constant no matter the equation and does not have to be calculated, or the nature of the greater equation of the "rise and fall of the ball" will dictate what the point of non-zero acceleration will be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds View Post
Time is what a clock measures.
But I mean time is a thing we as humans can not measure because we do not have an organ to measure it realistically, in the same way that we use an imperfect two dimensional measuring organ (the eye) to measure three dimensional space. It's not perfect, does not make any sense as a measuring instrument if you look at its performance too closely, but it's good enough for government work. The brain measures time by memory and does so imperfectly but it works as well as we can hope. A clock measures time but we use the brain to interpret what that measurement means and we do it imperfectly which is why we need math to fix our ****.

It sounds to me that this calculus equation you're talking about with nonzero acceleration is our way of breaking down time in relation to a certain instance of movement in a way that makes it make sense in as best a way as we can.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:21 PM   #63947 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 48,199
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
nerds
shut up, goth boy
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:22 PM   #63948 (permalink)
Remember the underscore
 
Pet_Sounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The other side
Posts: 2,488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug McClasky View Post
So the "point of non-zero acceleration" is simply a point in whatever relevant bigger equation that relates to the equation that describes the behavior of the object before the "point of non-zero acceleration" and how that relates to the equation describing the behavior of the object after the "point of non-zero acceleration"?

That sounds like a truism to me, and if that's correct is there an equation or "family" of equations or whatever to describe that "point of non-zero acceleration" or is that point simply a plot to point in the greater equation?
In this case, position is given by a quadratic equation in one variable (i.e. a parabola) velocity is given by its first derivative (i.e. a possibly sloped straight line) and acceleration is given by its second derivative (i.e. a level straight line).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug McClasky View Post
It sounds to me that this calculus equation you're talking about with nonzero acceleration is our way of breaking down time in relation to a certain instance of movement in a way that makes it make sense in as best a way as we can.
Yeah, it's a model developed by Newton.
__________________
Everybody's dying just to get the disease
Pet_Sounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2019, 11:25 PM   #63949 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 22,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds View Post
No, no matter how small your interval of measure is the ball in midair will always exhibit some movement in that interval.

EDIT: To be clear, we're talking about Newtonian physics here.
ok

I think (know actually) everything is either moving toward or away from the center of the earth just far more slowly than the midair ball. That’s an example of how philosophy and language informs science.
__________________

2016 2017 2018 2019 2020

Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion

Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND:

https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

OccultHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 12:06 AM   #63950 (permalink)
one-balled nipple jockey
 
OccultHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dirty Souf Biatch
Posts: 22,006
Default

Quote:
In this case, position is given by a quadratic equation in one variable (i.e. a parabola) velocity is given by its first derivative (i.e. a possibly sloped straight line) and acceleration is given by its second derivative (i.e. a level straight line).




Are these examples?

If not can you find a graph?
__________________

2016 2017 2018 2019 2020

Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion

Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND:

https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

OccultHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply




© 2003-2024 Advameg, Inc.