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Old 08-16-2019, 06:33 PM   #63601 (permalink)
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And yet the more capitalism progresses the more we move toward democratic socialism or some form of it. Capitalism is indeed efficiency writ large on industrial society, so why is it not the clear end result of capitalist influence when perfect efficiency should seem to be the natural end result?
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:44 PM   #63602 (permalink)
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Because it depends what you're being efficient at. That's why I don't appeal to capitalism as a necessary evil if another system emerged that had better results, that would be great. In fact if it doesn't happen we're ****ed.

But for the time being it's the only game in town
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:48 PM   #63603 (permalink)
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You don't think that capitalism's deafness to human morality, that thing that allows humans to cohabit together, means that something else is necessary? I mean I think that socialism is essentially capitalism meeting human morality.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:59 PM   #63604 (permalink)
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I think I just said that I think it will need to be replaced.

I'm only skepitcal about revolutionary zeal leading people blindly into thinking they can accomplish something they might not be able to. I'd say I have a fair amount of reasons for that.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:12 PM   #63605 (permalink)
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I think I just said that I think it will need to be replaced.

I'm only skepitcal about revolutionary zeal leading people blindly into thinking they can accomplish something they might not be able to. I'd say I have a fair amount of reasons for that.
I'd agree. You call me a communist but I don't believe in any of that revolutionary zeal. I believe that humanity is being culturally molded slowly but surely into something other than the cavemen we still kinda sorta are, but I don't think that our caveman instincts are being erased. We're still poo flinging apes at our very core. But capitalism is what destroyed the idea of formal birth hierarchies and socialism will be what destroys meritocratic hierarchies. Eventually.

I'm really not a revolutionary. I'm a watcher who would like the human race to be farther along than they currently are and can't help but be pissed off at seeing all these bull**** hierarchies still in force when I simply can't stand to still see them in existence because I have to live in this world where I'm subjected to them.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:41 PM   #63606 (permalink)
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I also disagree that capitalism is just about wealth creation

fundamentally it's a debate of private vs. public

free markets, private ownership
Whether or not it was meant to be about wealth creation and hoarding that is what capitalism is in reality. Private vs. public? Whether or not the person ruling my existence is a public servant or a private boss means little. They are both indifferent, cruel autocrats who I'll be happy to see hung from a street lamp.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:55 PM   #63607 (permalink)
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The power of capitalists kinda always meant that this was how it would play out. Talking about public meaning everyone vs. just some new age feudalists is kinda pointless.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:07 PM   #63608 (permalink)
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But one of the main foundations of capitalism was feudal lords seizing land previously held by the serfs as ancestral grazing ground, right?
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:37 PM   #63609 (permalink)
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Still going?
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:49 PM   #63610 (permalink)
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the serfs could not hold land except in extraordinary circumstances

it's true that land ownership was/is arbitrary, I don't know if that's your point

the idea that the workers could ever really own their labor, does not pan out in Capitalism
I do believe that one of the first capitalist moves was to seize grazing grounds that wasn't so much held by anybody as held by nobody.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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