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Old 06-19-2019, 11:08 PM   #61551 (permalink)
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But if what you desire is predetermined, there is no real difference to our billiard ball. There's just more complexity.
What does this word mean? Is this the secret behind free will?!
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:10 PM   #61552 (permalink)
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Yes.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:10 PM   #61553 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Doug McClasky View Post
You're literally describing cause and effect but adding more words that affect nothing. Stop giving yourself so much credit by assuming you said anything intelligent.
What I said was fairly clear and understandable.

It's nothing like your "soul death" nonsense.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:12 PM   #61554 (permalink)
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Yeah yeah, making fun of it more doesn't change the fact that you got stumped. Hide from the point.
Are you being ironic or do you really dismiss my argument as nothing more than making fun? I assure you it wasn't.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:17 PM   #61555 (permalink)
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Are you being ironic or do you really dismiss my argument as nothing more than making fun? I assure you it wasn't.
I didn't read it properly, I was upset.


If everything is predetermined then what sets us apart is our consciousness. That awareness would be what we call free will. Regardless predetermination isn't actually proven. Yet.

Edit: Quantum particles being the evidence against predetermination so far.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:19 PM   #61556 (permalink)
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What I said was fairly clear and understandable.

It's nothing like your "soul death" nonsense.
How is it nonsense? If you have no free will then accepting that in your mind 100% in an existential way would destroy your concept of yourself as you knew it. There's no hope in you accomplishing anything, simply hope that the universe unravels in a way that benefits you. You can't live like that, or at least society isn't yet capable of molding people to live like that.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:22 PM   #61557 (permalink)
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So free will is a meaningless and unnecessary concept. We could also just talk about consciousness
Even if the universe is not predetermined and there is randomness, for example due to quantum mechanics, this doesn't imply free will. Then we are just slaves to chance instead of predetermination.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:22 PM   #61558 (permalink)
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I didn't read it properly, I was upset.


If everything is predetermined then what sets us apart is our consciousness. That awareness would be what we call free will. Regardless predetermination isn't actually proven. Yet.
What do you mean "sets us apart"? How does it set us apart? It's just another thing.

Quote:
Edit: Quantum particles being the evidence against predetermination so far.
A Christian argument.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:25 PM   #61559 (permalink)
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How is it nonsense? If you have no free will then accepting that in your mind 100% in an existential way would destroy your concept of yourself as you knew it. There's no hope in you accomplishing anything, simply hope that the universe unravels in a way that benefits you. You can't live like that, or at least society isn't yet capable of molding people to live like that.
Because you won't lose your sense of self just because you don't think you actually choose that's ****ing stupid.

Which is why I said you don't know how to handle the idea and it confuses you. In all reality you'll just accept it and live just as you are now. Well, research shows that some people tend to lose value in morality and tend to act more in self interest but it really depends on your perception.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Last edited by Lucem Ferre; 06-19-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:30 PM   #61560 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by grindy View Post
So free will is a meaningless and unnecessary concept. We could also just talk about consciousness
Even if the universe is not predetermined and there is randomness, for example due to quantum mechanics, this doesn't imply free will. Then we are just slaves to chance instead of predetermination.
Free will is the ability to choose. It's not meaningless.

I already made that point about quantum mechanics having nothing to do with free will. Just simply stating that they contradict predetermination that you lean on as evidence for the lack of free will.

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What do you mean "sets us apart"? How does it set us apart? It's just another thing.
I mean it's what makes us different from pool balls. Or any inanimate object. They are not conscious regardless of being other things. Not hard to understand, Batlord. I'm not a ****ing genius, my words aren't that complex.

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A Christian argument.
No, because it's not relying on ignorance as proof and it's not avoiding the point with condescending statements like 'you just aren't there yet'.

It's evidence of randomness in the universe that directly contradicts predetermination.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
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