Your Day

DwnWthVwls · 02-07-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the idea of sectioning off a part of the population as the metaphorical "toilet people", required to do the labor no one else wants to do is an obvious injustice

meritocracy is the weak justification for it

I don't really have any problems with meritocracy, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If they had something to offer beyond cleaning toilets in a meritocracy they wouldnt be required to do labor no one else wants to do because they'd have something more valuable to offer, right?

The only issue I have is that they don't have access to the basic human rights we should all be afforded. As long as everyone has access to healthcare, shelter, food, etc I really don't care about super rich people having mansions and 17 cars (aside from the obvious environmental waste).

OccultHawk · 02-07-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

yeah but you can open your own firm/practice

I’m done with that point. I feel like you get dragged into arguing with people own their terms. **** that. Take it or leave it.

Quote:

sure, if it needs to be done, they can clean their own goddamn toilets

Church

OccultHawk · 02-07-2019, 05:54 PM

Quote:

As long as everyone has access to healthcare, shelter, food, etc I really don't care

If that includes me even if I refuse to work we can form an alliance.

OccultHawk · 02-07-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't get dragged in so much as I'm killing time until 2am when I get paid from my menial labor job

I hear ya!

DwnWthVwls · 02-07-2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

If that includes me even if I refuse to work we can form an alliance.

That's a hard sell for me. There comes a time when I stop caring about people who are a drain on society and have no willingness to help themselves or contribute to society. I mostly agree, but as you know all my positions come with the caveat of taking some amount of personal responsibility.

DwnWthVwls · 02-07-2019, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I mean I know this, but you absolutely should

first step is to recognize that there are no real meritocracies in the world

next is to recognize that a kind of Social Darwinian society is immoral and ultimately not beneficial to individuals anyhow

I do recognize your first step. I'm not convinced it's immoral. Resources are finite and spending them on people who have no appreciation for them or a desire to be helped is ultimately taking resources from those who want to be helped, appreciate the help, and will do something with that help. Convince me otherwise.

You'd have a convincing point if resources and time were infinite.

OccultHawk · 02-07-2019, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I do recognize your first step. I'm not convinced it's immoral. Resources are finite and spending them on people who have no appreciation for them or a desire to be helped is ultimately taking resources from those who want to be helped, appreciate the help, and will do something with that help. Convince me otherwise.

You'd have a convincing point if resources and time were infinite.

And we’re back to overpopulation

DwnWthVwls · 02-07-2019, 06:17 PM

I'm just waiting to hear a logical counter argument from elph and not some appeal to emotion.

DwnWthVwls · 02-07-2019, 06:27 PM

Yikes.

OccultHawk · 02-07-2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I see 2 fundamental moral problems with it

1) a meritocratic society forces people to compete, to succeed others must fail, performing to the best of your ability means that you will force others into lesser lives

2) it's authoritarian as opposed to democratic creating a pyramid like structure where you subjugate the people beneath you and are subjugated by those above you, meritocracy is as old an excuse for authoritarianism as nobles and peasants and beyond

How could anyone disagree?