Chula Vista

Seriously, that's just blah blah blah blabber trying to rationalize things that are beyond rationalization. I'm not buying it. If you are that's cool.

Watched the 2008 version of The Day the Earth stood Still recently and although it's a ****ty movie (still love Jennifer Connely to death) the message was pretty sound and pretty poignant to this discussion.

We are the problem. We are uncontrollable. We defy all logic and reason. We're seriously ****ed up.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Trollheart

You misunderstand. I'm not saying it wouldn't be crumbling in both universes. I'm talking about your own decision to cross it. In one, you do, and A happens, in the other you don't and B happens. It all depends on what YOU do, not what is already in place.

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Key

You do have to remember that even if you didn't choose to cross the bridge, there's already a predetermined decision with your other selves. They don't have the freedom of choice unless you stop them from choosing they will already be choosing.

Trollheart

My other selves will do what they're told or I'll know the reason why!

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

The Batlord

If you think that it's blather then you're either being stubborn or you're just incapable of understanding my point. I don't think it's the latter, since I've pointed out the flaw in your logic pretty simply.

I'll say it again, in hopes that you'll actually read what I'm saying and not just ignore it because it conflicts with the world view that you're comfortable with: just because you can't understand something, doesn't mean that it isn't based in logic. What's so hard about that? I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

If I've seen that then I don't remember it, but I generally don't derive my logical arguments from Hollywood movies.

Then free will still doesn't exist. If you conducted an experiment where you started an infinite number of identical "universes", all with the same people, the same past, the same knowledge, the same everything, then for free will to exist, at least one of those experiments would have to somehow deviate from the others, or else existence is predetermined.

In order for that one universe to deviate, then it has to somehow break at least one natural law that all of the rest follow. And in order for that to happen, then it has to happen randomly (magically), or else it would still be following a natural law. If reality can be affected by randomness, then there is still no free will, because at any time, you might act in a way that you never would otherwise, for no reason.

Which would make your stance supporting the death penalty even more illogical. You can't blame someone if it's possible that they acted randomly, since they weren't in control of their actions. If you want to say that that woman microwaved her baby because she was crazy, and not just because the universe is random, then you're accepting that the universe does act according to natural laws.

Either way, free will is hokum.

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Key

If you were given the choice, would you try to find your other selves and disrupt the natural way of things? I'm asking purely out of curiosity, because I think I would do it given the opportunity. I mentioned before that it'd be so much power that my mind wouldn't even be able to grasp the situation properly. It'd just be interesting to see what would happen as a result.

The Batlord

Why would you choose differently in another universe? If all of the same reasons why you crossed the bridge in universe A still exist, then why would you act differently in universe B?

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Chula Vista

NO. I'm just not accepting your point. It's complete BS. You feel free to feel otherwise.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

The Batlord

Explain to me how it's BS. I've explained my position and gone on at length about how your stance is logically flawed, but all you've done is go, "Nah, bro. It ain't like that."

And if you want to get crazy, it'd be cool if you explained how free will operates in your model of the universe. And "We defy all logic and reason" is not an acceptable answer, unless of course you're saying you believe in magic.

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Frownland

Ok I think you need to return this, it's making you look stubborn.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.