John Wilkes Booth

this is inspired by some of the banter in dali's tattoo thread. it got me to thinking... are alternative trends inherently antisocial? when i say antisocial i am referring to this:

an·ti·so·cial
?an(t)e'soSH?l,?an(t)i'soSH?l/
adjective
1.
contrary to the laws and customs of society; devoid of or antagonistic to sociable instincts or practices.
"a dangerous, unprincipled, antisocial type of man"
synonyms: sociopathic, distasteful, disruptive, rebellious, misanthropic, asocial
"worrisome antisocial behavior"
2.
not sociable; not wanting the company of others.
synonyms: unsociable, unfriendly, uncommunicative, reclusive, withdrawn, avoidant; informalstandoffish
"I'm feeling a bit antisocial"

so don't come at me with a bunch of stuff about antisocial personality disorder cause i'm not diagnosing anybody here.

but it seems to me that alternative trends are inherently antisocial in that they seek to undermine or invert mainstream values and trends. mainstream values and trends are basically just the propagation of cultural memes throughout a population. ideas which appeal to the greatest number of people rise to the mainstream through this statistical advantage. sort of like natural selection/evolution.

alternative trends seek to undermine these trends by providing its own set of cultural memes that are meant to replace the mainstream ones for its adherents. you can say this isn't antisocial because alternative trends develop their own community of adherents and so they're actually pro-social trends for the people that adopt them. but since they challenge mainstream values they seem inherently bound to alienate the vast majority of the population, which is why i think they are antisocial.

then you can go a step further into antisocial behavior and find 4chanish trolls who lash out against the current counter culture, creating a sort of counter-counter culture. this is even more antisocial and alternative than the original set of alternative trends, because it appeals to an even smaller group of cultural dissidents. i have a friend like this who literally can't enjoy most forms of music or movies or even comedy because he resents the counter cultural memes that they perpetuate.

i suppose you could indefinitely keep generating new counter-cultures to undermine the last one.

what do you guys think?

Frownland

Well if it's an alternative trend, some of those people are doing it to impress other people who are following that trend. That sounds like quite the opposite of being anti-social to me. That's not to mention that if your group is different from everyone else, it's likely that you're in a closer-knit group because of that alienation. It could be the case that some people are anti-social who pick up on these things, but I'd say it leans more in the other direction.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

i already addressed that point in my initial post

the pro-social aspect of it only applies within that subgroup, but in general the subgroup exists as an antisocial response to the current mainstream

Frownland

I know you mentioned it, I just elaborated on it. I think the fact that it's a group response goes against it being an antisocial thing, even if it's technically antisocial when compared to the whole of society simply because it's a social event in itself.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

The Batlord

It may be pro-social on the group level, but the individuals are acting anti-socially by joining the counter-culture in the first place. What they do afterward doesn't erase that. The counter-culture will be anti-social by nature.

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Neapolitan

I forget where I heard this, but [they] said even though that Heavy Metal is music for outsiders, anti-socials, et al Metal fans dress alike. It's basically non-conformity through conformity. They wear concert or band shirts and jeans, some might wear chains on their wallets and maybe spike wrist bands, a few might have a tattoo of their favorite band or maybe not their atf band but a tattoo they think is cool it evokes the gods of metal like something along the lines of runes or maybe Thor's hammer, or maybe Dio or another Heavy Metal singer.
for example:

Now if that doesn't scream individuality and anti-social subcultures, then I don't know what does. Because I bet you dollars to donuts a non Heavy Metal fan wouldn't be caught dead with that tattoo. That tattoo just scream "I'm Metal as hell and I am not going to take it any more."or it can say "In your face society, I'm a Metal fan, and what are you going to do about it?!" The possibilities of Metal fandom expressions is countless.

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The Batlord

Fine, I'll have sex with you if it'll stop your whining. Jesus Christ.

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John Wilkes Booth

i dunno, the way i think about it is basically that the group activity manifests as a response to current cultural trends or values. and since it seeks to undermine those trends or values it is an antisocial response, even if it's taken on by more than one person.

sort of like cults. i think cults are pretty antisocial tbh. especially when they pressure their members to cut off ties with non-cult members. yet if we say that groups can't be antisocial then you'd have to say the same thing about cults, which just doesn't correct to me.

Frownland

Good point, I suppose it's to judged on a case by case basis. I'd say by and large that it's what I discussed earlier, though.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

well forgive me if i sound like i'm arguing just for the sake of it, cause that's not what i'm trying to do, but the point of this thread sort of relies on making generalizations. to me, anyway. so i don't want to default to a case by case basis. i want to see if we can make any general statements that will apply across the board.

so as to what you discussed earlier, if i'm interpreting you right, you mean that some people join in just to impress the existing members of the trend? this could be true yet i feel like it's questionable exactly why they want to impress that particular group, as opposed to a more mainstream group.

as social animals, it would seem more effective to try to impress the more mainstream group because there you're dealing with a larger number of people. so i think the fact that they are drawn to that group in the first place sort of reflects their alienation from other mainstream cultural trends.