DwnWthVwls

If you say so. I'd like to see some scientific studies that attempt to prove this or make a good argument for it. The human brain is something unlike any other thing in nature and creates a lot of ambiguity between traits developed out of reproductive/evolutionary necessity and traits that are bi-products of human emotion and not essential to evolutionary success.

Edit: Not gonna sit here and tell you you're wrong because you probably watched some 2 hour talk about it, but I think without something behind your statement it's pretty hard to just believe you or understand what your trying to say in a couple sentences.

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

John Wilkes Booth

i'm sort of unclear what you're asking me to prove? that we have the biological imperative to reproduce successfully, and that is the driving force of everything that we do, just like every other organism on the planet?

EPOCH6

I've missed most of this thread and will probably end up repeating things that have already been said but it looks like there are a few people in here ready to keep the train rolling on for however many more pages it goes.

I think it's a rushed conclusion to say that the primary innate driving force in a human is successful reproduction, but I wouldn't argue with the notion that our primary innate driving force is survival. And survival does not exclusively depend upon extensive breeding. Extensive breeding has played an incalculable role in getting us to the stage we're currently at, but the longer we exist as a species the more complex our behavior and abilities become, the more we learn about the world around us, and the more it becomes clear that our goals as a species are much more complicated than we knew while we were playing fecal dodgeball in the African Savanna however many years ago.

Strength in numbers only goes so far until either the numbers become the problem or a force greater than your own comes along and stops everything below it in its tracks, AKA an astronomical disaster completely out of our control, like an asteroid impact or solar activity. Like DwnWthVwls said a page back or so, survival may be more complicated than endlessly bulging the population forever. You can blindly **** your way into a massive civilization, but you can't blindly **** your way into a massive stable civilization. There are way too many factors at play to give every Lemming the same role, all angles need to be worked simultaneously, and some of those angles can't be worked by full-time parents.

Countless brilliant scientists and accomplished professionals of many other fields have been saying for countless years that the more we learn about the universe the more it seems like we must shift our focus towards evacuating our home and developing strong skills as a space-faring species. We must spread out if we want to survive the sweeping catastrophes that we know are coming, some of the same sweeping catastrophes that we know have come in the past, annihilating those powerful species that were here before us (T-Rex & Friends). And that means that some of us, some percentage of the population, must stop having children and devote their time to pushing progress in the other fields that bolster our chances at long-term survival, fields like science, technology, medicine, health care, and the many trades. Fields that can progress much faster with some percentage of the population focusing more of their attention on the work than on raising the global head count. And of course the rest of the population must continue breeding, there obviously needs to be some population of humans raising families to keep the system fueled.

It's wildly narrow sighted to believe that one approach to survival can lead to an ideal outcome for a whole in a system with so many factors at play. There are many roles that need to be filled, and some of those roles require hours that would otherwise be spent raising children. There are many ways to contribute to society, 1 of those ways is raising healthy intelligent children.

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ladyislingering

...because they were mountain climbing because they have no fuckin' kids to spoil it.

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John Wilkes Booth

successful reproduction is the driving force of evolution in general

humans are no exception

Scarlett O'Hara

You quoted my post and this doesn't seem aimed at what I said. Am I right?

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Trollheart

I wonder which one... Jesus (cough) the Carpenter...
Yes. Please stop using this as justification for your hatred, or dislike of kids. I worked in one of our biggest department stores and I never once thought as you do. Your experiences may be harder than mine were, but you have to accept it's the exception rather than the rule. Kids bother most people but it's unlikely everyone who is bothered thinks "I wish these people didn't have kids". Try to see the good things about them, which you consistently refuse to do. I'm prepared to admit there are negative things about children but you won't even give one smegging inch, as if bad is all there is.
Of course it wasn't aimed at you honey. You don't think I would speak that way to you? That was addressed to Orph, a situation we have clarified now. I only quoted your post to sympathise and not to be making too many posts at once. How are you now? Have you seen the doctor?

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Trollheart

It just concerns me that many of you are looking at this in such a negative light. If we allow the species to continue, surely some of our children, or theirs, will come up with great scientific advances, curing diseases, improving life? Maybe they'll make it out to space, colonising the stars so that the population problem here won't be relevant? But if we just sit back and fold our arms and say "**** it, we're done", then we deserve to be extinct. I may be overly optimistic, but I always like to think there's hope for the future. If not, why not just all kill ourselves now and be done with it? I find it hard, I must admit, to accept and certainly don't share this attitude.

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

Oriphiel

Warning, TL;DR ahead! Continue at your own peril.

I have to pose a question. If we exist purely to survive and make babies, why do people commit suicide? You're right, people (like all animals) do basically exist to survive and reproduce, but it's a bit more complicated then that. Our brains are more developed than most other creatures, and we have a deeper idea of what "survival" is. Basically, we have different tiers of wants and needs, and each tier has the ability to overpower the other.

It's not enough for humans to just survive and make babies, we also have social needs and desires (which is why most of us are posting on this forum). Being social creatures that developed to survive in groups, we have a desire to belong to like-minded factions. And when that "social survival" is threatened, we may even go so far as to take our own lives (which is spitting in the face of the biological imperative, and the drive to survive) to restore our standing (seppuku), end the criticism or shaming (someone does something "bad", and everyone rejects and shames them), or otherwise take the course of action that our complicated brains think are best (in cases where it might just be depression and internal factors over external that convinces us to do it, or a mix of both).

Humans want to survive physically, in the literal and original sense. This is the first tier that humans want to make progress in. Basically, humans want to have basic things like food and shelter, and they generally don't care as much about their social needs until these physical needs are met. And if our social network suddenly gets thrown out of the window (like if the world underwent a near apocalyptic event, and you were trying to survive in the immediate aftermath, scavenging for food and avoiding people, who might have bad intentions), we go back to this first tier.

However, once we have those basic needs, we start to want more. Humans are more likely to survive in a pack, and meeting other people and forming a group also increases our chances of finding a mate. Having the basic tools of survival at our disposal is well and good, but now we want to be distinguished in a faction (or at least follow an archetype of established behavior that makes us beyond social reproach, i.e. wearing clothing we know our friends will like, having a job that isn't considered embarrassing, etc.)

The last tier is reserved for grand ideas and abstractions that creatures without developed brains quite frankly don't give a fuck about. It's social survival and the need to belong, but on a much wider scale. This is where things like legacy and religion come into play, where humans desire to have an impact after their physical forms have deteriorated. Once people have fulfilled their physical and social needs, this is the next step towards giving them satisfaction with their existence. People form and share complicated ideas, usually ones that can't easily observed by an average person (for example, the belief that the universe has a god, the belief that the universe has no god, the belief that the universe is all just a dream in The Batlord's head, etc.). It almost exclusively runs on faith; a congregation believing their pastor, a group of students believing teachers and scientists, and so on.

Basically, everything we do is to attain homeostasis, not reproduce. Even though homeostasis and survival exist to be a foundation from which to reproduce, it's important to remember the distinction, because the drive to attain homeostasis can overpower the need to reproduce (like someone joining a cult that demonizes sex and babies, wishing for human extinction, to fulfill their social needs). And when the needs of one tier start to get fucked around with, they can overpower the others in an attempt to reattain balance, which is usually when people do normally illogical things (like kill others for their religion, kill themselves for a variety of reasons, etc.) to protect their social, religious, and physical ideals. For more information about the general idea of humans having tiered wants and needs, check out Maslow's hierarchy sometime: Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trollheart

But your legacy has. Oh dear God what am I saying?
I'm sure Batty would agree that whenever you're talking to kids you should always get down on their level: it's so much easier to punch them in the face, right Bats?

In all seriousness though, I think it's between you and Chula for MB's Best Father award... tough call.

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Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018