Yac

Well, as far as I know the actual topic, not the hijacked one, is not only about women. Also if you read my post, I'm not actually voicing my opinion on anything other than the fact that people have different opinions. You act like all women voted you to be their ambassador and defender, did that actually happen ? Or are you just a vigilante, bringing justice where no one else dares ?
I don't have anything against women, I love women. I know they are perfectly capable of defending whatever they feel like defending without waging a holy war about it, without an online forum champion that will lead that crusade. If anything, the way I see it (see ? my opinion!) you're harming the case you're trying to make by making it about you, and throwing a fit about it.
The world doesn't turn around you, the topic is not about you. There are topics on this forum that make me feel uncomfortable - I don't feel the urge to go there and tell everybody they are wrong and derail the thread. Does that make me weird?
I'm sorry for the not so subtle mockery in some parts of my post, but this whole "not a fight" (I still don't know what we're having here, exactly ?) is bizarre, unnecessary and just silly.

Sansa Stark

I'm not saying you have anything against women whatsoever, merely saying that it is a woman's problem (not just me) and being that you aren't a woman, it's not something you will ever have to experience but it is a big problem for us. I disagree that I am making this all about me nor do I see this as me being ~champion. I wanted to speak up for myself and say things that I'm not the only one thinking. But whatever, you know. Enough derailing. I don't think I speak for all women either, however seeing that I'm being agreed with, I am not the only one who feels this way. The two people who agreed with me ARE women.

But again, I know the whole thread is not about women, but I can only speak for my own experiences as a woman, and I am being agreed with, so that tells you something.

Yac

Well, you might not want to make it about you but that's how I read it (and I'm sure many other members too, though again it's only my opinion). Communicating through a medium limited to text only can be misleading, it is extremely easy to be misunderstood online - I know I have made my share of mistakes like that. Generally stopping before posting to check whether you're calm is a good way of eliminating most cases of your post being misread. Posting in anger, excitement, basically any strong or semi strong emotional state significantly increases the risk of miscommunication. And miscommunication is the single most frequent reason for conflicts.
Be more zen.

Anyway, I am glad we can talk about this in a civil way, I was worried this discussion might escalate into something nasty and personal.

Sansa Stark

I think you must not be familiar with my posts, because you think that's not me being calm, haha. Normally I'm very blunt and concise with my posting and I don't use as many big words when I'm pissed, but that's not the case here. Like I said many people like to glomm on to the trope that "Hermione is a dramatic bitch" and think I'm incapable of civil discourse, but since you treated me with respect and weren't a total dickbag about your opinions (at least not much ) I treated you the same, as befitting your sane and rational response.

WHODA THUNK YALL

Yac

Yeah, I don't post here often outside of several specific threads, though I knew who I was engaging, your reputation precedes you
I assumed you were angry, just like you assumed I was a total dickbag, both assumptions were based on something, right ? Maybe if we assumed less and focused on looking for what we have in common instead of what differentiates us, we could actually be able to discuss important issues without it turning into a mess of personal remarks, goalpost shifts and strawman arguments ? It's a route internet discussions almost always take, which makes me sad as I view the regulars here as intelligent people, potentially simply better people than the random idiots that seem to be living online.

Sansa Stark

See yac, the point is, that was my whole entire issue was commonality with other people, especially women. I have lots in common with many people here, especially the girls aside from Vanilla, and I count them as really wonderful people and felt that I needed to stick up for those of us who are female indentified because I don't want them to feel that there is something wrong with them for fitting into her snide definition of what makes a normal woman. Being compared with other women, especially the bad ass ladies of MB makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and I would count myself lucky to be told I'm like them. That is what makes me sad, that they should feel bullied and excluded from the community because of her bull****. That's what I would not stand for, so like I said, it's not just about me because her ideas on femininity mean dick to me because I am very secure in my feminine identity but not everyone is like me and they may be struggling with what makes a woman a woman, but just imagining how it would make other women feel truly hurts my heart. There is no way to remove personal remarks from this discussion as it would remove all possibility of humanity and credibility. You simply cannot be removed personally from this discussion.

Yac

Ok, i will bite.
This is exactly what I meant about being a "champion" for an online crusade. You felt bad, you assumed every woman would interpret what was written the same way, so you began to fight in their name. Because like you say, it's not about you but about other people, right? You don't want them to feel in a specific way, because you assume they will. This is what this whole mess is based on imo, bad assumptions. Yes, bad, as in incorrect. I never claimed to know what women think, especially not all of them. Hell, I wouldn't risk assuming what men think as I know people differ. You took Vanillas personal opinion, took it out of context, turned it into an attack on all women and started to fight for "what is right". This is the strawman I was talking about, this is the vigilantism I was talking about.
Removing some of the personal remarks, especially the juvenile name calling, could help a lot and I doubt it would remove any humanity or credibility, in fact I'd wager it would have an exactly opposite effect.

Arya Stark

I think that's why I was personally offended most. Being tall and just generally a little less feminine at times, I am offended that having some of the same interestsas Vanilla is considered to be less "girly." I play video games, watch scifi, hate romance, and so much more. I didnt want to be considered manly for that, I just want to be considered myself. If this had been the first time she mentioned this, I wouldn't have a problem, but on multiple occassions she says its weird or different having interests that are not stereotypically feminine. On the other hand, I think its awesome that she is proud of her interests, but not that she puts down women that do follow the stereotypes.

__________________

MB Journal.
Azucar y Especia. My blog.

Sansa Stark

Again, I must insist that your opinions on a matter that affects women doesn't erase mine or my experiences, you are not a woman so constantly insisting you know what you're talking about is kind of offensive. But I'm really unconcerned with how you perceive me. However, you seem to be operating under the impression I am taking one instance and blowing it out of proportion when this is simply untrue. She constantly makes very offensive threads like "Are Women Funny?' and "Do Women Deserve to be Paid the Same as Men" serve to say the same thing I said about asserting herself to be better than other women. These things are disgusting to see a woman even try to imply aren't valid or necessary things for us as women. You also cannot, again, speak on a matter that affects women and it is not just me having a problem since more than one person has agreed with me on the matter.

Sansa Stark

Bingo. I'm a rough tough ride or die boss bitch but I'm also girly as **** and that is not up to anyone else to define but me. And am I "lame' for also liking traditionally feminine things? Nope.