Frownland

Well Comic Sans is to help those with dyslexia, even if it is in a small function. Since F. Scott Fitzgerald was dyslexic, do you want him to be punished!

VICTORY

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Black Francis

Im very glad that most ppl recognise animation as credible medium nowadays but there are still alot of ppl who view them as kids cartoons

cause for the most part most american cartoons are still being marketed to kids, take every CGI animated movie like Shrek, those still look like kids flicks right?

they are still not taking animation seriously, i don't mean the animators, i mean the general public perception of animation

Family guy and Southpark are for an older demographic but their comedy cartoons

they are not being serious, Samurai jack like miss poptart said is a good example of trying to apply the seriousness of anime into an american cartoon

speaking of comics, i remember in my days it was childish even for a teenager to collect comics, ppl dismissed it as childish but they had great stories, 10 to 20 yrs later Iron man is made into a movie, the avengers, and now EVERYBODY is on board >_>

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"Hey Kids you got to meet the MIGHTY PIXIES!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbRbCtIgW3A

Circe

No, animation is not just for kids and anybody who says it is is either delusional or an idiot. Sure, there's a lot of animation that doesn't offer much to appeal to adults but that would be like saying only frat boys can like action films because they're the group that most of it's geared towards. Right now I'm burning through Adventure Time like there's no tomorrow and a few months ago I did the same with Friendship Is Magic. I feel that Pixar create some of the best films mankind has ever seen and I have a couple of animes on the sideline that are absolutely not for children.

Black Francis

lol are they?

they just haven't seen spirited away

i don't wanna force ppl into liking what i like, but the story telling in Anime is very unique..
hollywood movies can't fill that void i can't help to think that ppl who don't watch anime don't know what they are missing out

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"Hey Kids you got to meet the MIGHTY PIXIES!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbRbCtIgW3A

Zer0

You wouldn't show an anime such as Ninja Scroll or Elfen Lied to a 7 year-old kid without mentally scarring them. So no animation is not just for kids.

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Psychedub Dude

I don't think you can say it's just for kids, because I know back in the day when I used to watch all the old Nick toons there was a lot of jokes that went right over my head but my parents thought were hilarious. I feel like the creators throw those kind of play on words and little jokes for the older audience that is most liking watching as well.

The shows are made for anybody to watch, while kids maybe their target audience you know they have to factor in the other crowd as well. That can't really be said for stuff like Dora The Explorer and other crap like that, thats specifically made for kids. But for the majority of kids shows there is usually references they just wont get.

Stuff like Regular Show seems like its made for adults, I'm surprised by how popular it is among kids. Its basically like this generations Beavis and Butthead.

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There is only one beer left
Rappers screaming all in our ears like we're deaf
Tempt me, do a number on the label
Eat up all their MC's and drink 'em under the table

[B]Last.fm

Shadows Of Our Souls

GuitarBizarre

Edit: Holy text wall batman. Apparently I have a lot to say on the subject of media formats and creative mediums!

Its a medium. Like any medium, it can be leveraged to deal with topics and material both childish and adult.

Music? Well, there are nursery rhymes, there's bubblegum pop, there's sexually charged pop (most of it), there's Led Zeppelin and Van Halen, then there's Marylin Manson, and you can keep going, right the way through metal, up to grindcore and beyond.

The topics discussed in music vary to every possible facet of humanity, and are come at from many angles. The medium is very widely, and very effectively leveraged to put across all sorts of messages.

The same can be said of Television - There are kids shows, childrens TV, action series, and again, we can continue all the way through until we've dealt with politics, religion, violence, sex, and combinations of all the above. Much TV material is absolutely not interesting to, or aimed at, or suitable for children - but just as much of it IS all of those things, and so once again, we see a medium leveraged for the benefit of not just one group but all groups.

What about videogames? Well, again, there are childrens games, there are teenage games, skill games, RPG, horror, violent, sexual, competitive and social - all sorts of games with all sorts of content aimed at all sorts of people of all sorts of ages.

Animation? Well, sure, there's Rhubarb and Custard and Superted. You get a little older in terms of the "intended" age range, watch Dangermouse. You outgrow that, you watch something like Fillmore, or Freakazoid. Older again, you can find stuff to watch like Bleach or Initial D, older again you might find some of the horror or thriller series like Monster, or Blood+ to be appealing, all the way up until something like Hellsing or Black Lagoon, both of which feature either graphic violence and/or deal with extremely challenging material which wouldn't be suitable for children at all.

And thats without even touching on something like outright porn - After all, porn exists in ALL those mediums - TV, Film, Audio, even animated, as the threadstarter points out.

And here's the really interesting bit - Using music as an example, since we're on a music forum -

Lets take the "journey" of a persons musical taste throughout life.

Well, as a kid, nursery rhymes.
A little older, there might be a few chintzy pop songs on the radio to listen to, but nothing of any great weight, and even if it is sexual (Backstreet boys "Am I sexuaaaaall...yeeaaaaah... am I the only ooooneee? Yeaaaaah).
A little older again - probably musically little changes apart from a few different songs, but as adolescence and education set in, the sexual content in much music becomes more evident.
A little older again, perhaps a chance meeting with someone turns this person on to Nirvana - So begins a journey through rock music, starting with Nirvana singing about teenage angst, through all the dark and serious topics dealt with between Grunge and heavy metal. Alice in Chains singing about heroin, Nirvana's "Rape me", etc.

At the end of the journey this person finds themselves an adult, in their mid 20s or so, and might either listen daily to Slayer, Anal cunt, and Sisquo's Thong Song, or they'll at least have an awareness of such if they've bothered to explore their medium in any depth.

And has this person stopped enjoying any of that older music they listened to when they were a kid? Well, maybe, but I'd argue that the open minded among us don't. Gotye, for example, released a MEGAhit, "Somebody That I Used To Know".

That song has a very adult context - a nasty breakup. The matter is dealt with in such framing that I believe it is clear this isn't some teenage breakup - its a breaking down and response to a very real, very adult relationship.

But the intro is...what? Baa baa black sheep. And it works. It makes sense musically. its engaging. There's no reason why people can't still happily enjoy that little tune - if they want to.

And you'll see this with any music lecturer - They'll go on for HOURS about how boring it is to hear the same chords and patterns and licks repeated all day. But if you talk to them about a nursery rhyme and ask them to explain how it works and why it works - Well, actually, in my experience most music teacher will sit there and explain exactly that - With GENUINE enthusiasm! Their eyes will light up and they'll relish the opportunity to get back to the absolute basics of music and show you, the pupil, why even the smallest thing about music, the simplest things you heard when you were a child, are exciting and interesting.

Thats how it is with music, and in fact, thats how it is in any medium - EVEN if the material genuinely IS childish, and IS aimed at younger audiences, there's no reason there can't be something about that material that is worthwhile from a more adult perspective - As a child, nobody was capable of analysing and pulling apart baa baa black sheep - but as adults, we can do that and gain an appreciation for how something so simple was actually crafted with a very deft skill.

On the same token, with something like television, people get nostalgia and a new perspective opens up on those old kids shows they watched, like Art Attack!. Sure, its no longer the same experience it was as a kid, but there's no reason someone can't sit down and watch an old episode of Art Attack, and enjoy it, perhaps laughing at the poor production, or having a giggle at how outlandish it seems now, when it was perfectly "normal" as a kid.

What about games? How many people are out there who don't really play games, but will still have a good time if you throw pacman in front of them? Or who can hum along to the mario theme? Tons! And even people who play serious, hardcore competitive games, or games with hyper-violent themes, can share that same experience of going back to pacman and saying "This was really good!".

There are still people out there to this day competing for the highest scores in retro games - There's even a documentary called King of Kong.

And some of that competition is very niche, but very heated - Look at the speedrun marathon that speeddemosarchive organised - Awesome Games Done Quick - Most of the games being played there are childish, 8-Bit NES or 16 Bit SNES games, that these people have found a hobby in trying to break them and complete them faster than anyone else.

And these people aren't crazy manchildren or freaky nerds - Sure, they're geeky, but thats immaterial - they're mature enough and dedicated enough to fly across a country, and do their thing in front of thousands to raise money for charity - Over $400,000 in the last event!

And why? Because they're not concerned with what their age group is "supposed" to enjoy. They just enjoy what they enjoy and thats that. And because enough of them did that, they're their own awesome little group that does great things for each other and for people with breast cancer.

So ultimately, why should animation be any different? There's a lot out there. Some of it is good, some bad, some childish, some adult, and every variation thereof.

But I tell you what - I'm never going to think Dangermouse or Hong Kong Phooey were uncool, and I'm never going to hear the theme tune to Rhubarb and Custard without some measure of happiness. I'm also not going to be coy about the fact Freakazoid contained a TON of pop culture references that the kids it was aimed at simply never would have gotten.

I'm also not going to tell you that Fairy Tail isn't fun to watch at any age, and I'm not going to tell you Hellsing or Black Lagoon are in any way for children - despite both of them being actually, pretty damned good.

So watch whatever you want - Someone is always going to think its complete ****, and hell, if you've got bad taste, they may well be right. But its not because its animation, or music, or film - it'll just be because it is what it is.

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Urban Hat€monger ?

I'm not saying that animation is only for kids but personally I'm the sort of person who's never found anime interesting. I had an ex girlfriend who was really into it who would try & make me watch it and I just found them to be unengaging, cheaply made and boring. To be honest I had more enjoyment watching a Pixar movie with my nephew.

As for comic books / graphic novels, well I thought they were stupid even when I was a kid, especially Marvel comics. I've just never seen the appeal of superheroes. There's always been a part of me that thinks it's all rather pathetic when I've seen fully grown men going all gooey over a Spiderman comic.

I've seen a other graphic novels and to be honest I find the whole comic book medium a bit boring and no matter how adult the story. It still feels like a book that's been dumbed down for people who can't handle a proper novel.

Feel free to tear me apart.

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GuitarBizarre

No need to tear you apart - you're perfectly correct. As much as I said, say, Hellsing and Black Lagoon were great (And they are), they're not highbrow. Black Lagoon is occasionaly thought provoking, but its creator is clearly a great fan of 80's action flicks, and as such the show is at times a love letter to Girls Guns and Swearing.

Hellsing on the other hand is very much a case of forcing the viewer into a position where the content of the plot and the characters reactions and interactions obtain some level of gravitas - There's no deep, underlying sub plot o anything like that, but it is a very effectively made show in terms of, like I say, positioning the viewer where they need to be in the setting.


The thing is, most anime fans are teenagers, and typically, nerdy ones.

I would consider myself quite capable, for example, of explaining to you exactly why Freakazoid is a fantastic cartoon, cancelled before its time because its content skewed demographics - As I mentioned, its humour often relies on reference to things that children simply know nothing about.

Fillmore has the same problem - Its entire concept is basically "Lets put a 70's buddy cop show into a high school setting and sell it to kids" - The result is actually very good fun and immensely enjoyable - But, again, all of the ENDURING value of the show is lost on anyone who isn't culturally aware of what a buddy cop show is and does.

Explaining these things to you is in no way difficult to me, but the shows I'm talking about were aimed at people ten years younger than I am. Can they explain these things to you in the relevant detail? Absolutely not.

So when anime is "advised" to people, its a veritable minefield of completely bull**** advice, written by people who don't understand how to correctly analyse a thing that may genuinely have some fantastic qualities. Most people, having gotten into it as if it were a "cool" and "Different" thing due to its associations with japanese culture, end up overwhelmed by everything and lose perspective, end up just recommending what they like - Which might not be what you're looking for.

Ultimately, I do believe there is animation out there, both in the form of japanese anime, and NOT in that form, which is sufficiently well done and well figured out to be appealing, as much to you as to me.

I just don't believe that stuff is what typically floats the boat of anyone so immature as to recommend "Anime" rather than "How about THIS, particular anime, which I have looked at and believe you would enjoy".

A lot of it also, is knowing how to enjoy the thing. Children don't understand the pleasure of owning and listening to a vinyl record - many of them never will know that pleasure. But some of them will LEARN that pleasure and its all a matter of being told what to listen for in a lot of cases.

Same with anime/animation. I enjoy a ton of anime pretty much on the basis that it ISN'T clever. Some I enjoy from a perspective where they're fun BECAUSE they're incredibly stupid. Others still, I enjoy because they're stupid, but put across some, if not particularly sutble, good messages about their characters and their positive and negative traits.

When someone says they don't like animation, to me I see that person like most of you would see someone who said "I don't like music" - Its clear, obvious even, that SOME music must exist that they enjoy. There's just too much of it out there for someone to hate all of it! They just haven't ever thought about it or looked for it or been shown it directly.

The parallel goes even further - What if that person who says "I don't like music" is introduced to music by a poor teacher, or by someone who is unrepentantly nasty about how much they should like it? Well, that's going to reinforce their view rather than change it. It does damage to any effort that may occur to bring that person into the beauty of what music is and does.

Unfortunately, most anime fans are simply poor teachers, and because they love it so much, they get bitchy and defensive when someone doesn't immediately love it - Which puts people off even more. Which is a shame.



The one thing I *will* say is to remember that animation of all kinds is more than just "anime", despite the threadstarter's obvious inclinations.

I mean, this is animation, no more or less than Anime is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8sLcvWG1M4

So are Tim Burton films, which, like or hate him, are enduring classics, or if the film itself isn't, certainly his style is recognised and influential.



Alternatively, perhaps look at some of the stuff that's a little more genre-blurring. The Big O, for example, which, sadly, was cancelled before its 3rd series (Meaning its ending creates more questions than it could ever answer), but nevertheless shows a very good awareness of stuff like character dynamics, and a keen line of what there is to tell, and not tell, a viewer - its very good with suspense, and its writing/voice acting is rather excellent.

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Rjinn

I would certainly never let my kids watch that. It really had some disturbing scenes.

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